tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post4126793656811977034..comments2023-10-07T04:07:56.527-04:00Comments on The End Time: More on why the rapture will happen pre-tribulationElizabeth Pratahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-18212298329038464582013-11-21T16:50:07.255-05:002013-11-21T16:50:07.255-05:00By your definition, since there are no conclusive ...By your definition, since there are no conclusive verses on the subject, the Trinity is a theory also.<br /><br />The Tribulation and the Day of the Lord is the same event. So is the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and The Day. They all refer to the same event, more here<br />http://www.gotquestions.org/day-of-the-Lord.htmlElizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-29139597677929493852013-11-21T15:21:12.383-05:002013-11-21T15:21:12.383-05:00The problem with dogmatically standing on a Pre-Tr...The problem with dogmatically standing on a Pre-Tribulation rapture theory is the fact it is but a mere theory -- not a fact born out by conclusive Scripture verses. I would love to hold to a rapture that sees the Church lifted up and away from the trials of the Tribulation. But because the history of the Church has been marked by continual persecution and martyrdom from the very beginning, why should we now suppose that there will be an escape with the advent of the final tribulation?<br />The problem I see with the Dispensational view of the end times (Pre-Tribulation rapture) is confusing the two separate end-time events 1. the Tribulation and 2. the Day of the Lord. The wrath that is about to be poured out on the earth is the Day of the Lord (cf. Joel 2:31, ; 3:14-16 ; Zeph. 1:14,15 ; 2:2,3) . In order for the Day of the Lord (His wrath) to fall, the Tribulation must first occur, then the celestial phenomena, then the Second Coming (cf. Matt. 24:21,29,31) with the Rapture of the saints (His elect). The scriptural order of these four events is thus made irrefutable.R. Cromptonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-88495298105960509172011-01-24T19:37:46.277-05:002011-01-24T19:37:46.277-05:00Thank you! I appreciate that.
Let's make a di...Thank you! I appreciate that.<br /><br />Let's make a distinction between old covenant Jews, new covenant church age Christians, and Tribulation believers. Here is an explanation from Jack Kelley, since my attempts to being light to the truth are not reaching you.<br />"Before the cross, man looked forward in faith that this would one day happen, but obedience to the provisions of what we call the Old Covenant was required as evidence of this faith. During the Church Age we look back in faith that it did happen, and obedience to the provisions of the Old Covenant is no longer required."<br /><br />"After the Church is gone man will again be required to give evidence of His faith by maintaining certain behavioral standards. Rev. 14:12 says salvation for Tribulation believers will require obedience to the commandments as well as remaining faithful to Jesus. And even after Israel receives the New Covenant they will still have to offer sacrifices in the Temple, maintain a Levitical priesthood, and keep certain Holy Days (Ezekiel 40-46). And Zechariah 14:16-19 tells us that even Gentiles will be held accountable to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Clearly the post church provisions of the New Covenant will be different from those during the Church Age."<br /><br />So that's the distinction. Now to the comment:<br /><br />The Old Covenant was not flawed. That is like saying God is flawed, He made an "oops." The system of sacrifices was set up to show outward obedience to a heart condition: faith. This was done as believers waited for their Messiah. The sin covering of the animal blood was only good for a day, and needed to be repeated. However the old covenant was not done away with, because, there's still 7 years left to go. Jesus didn't come to do away with the old covenant, but change the relationship of it with Church Age believers. Think of it as the church having a unique relationship with Jesus and then after the rapture, reverting to the last 7 years of demonstrated faith thru sacrifices.<br /><br />And the rapture will happen before all of that, because Law and Grace do not co-exist. Nothing you have quoted satisfies the fact that God set aside 7 years to finish dealing with the Jews.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-69101544645613261762011-01-24T19:18:01.770-05:002011-01-24T19:18:01.770-05:00I thought I had given scripture to support my posi...I thought I had given scripture to support my position? How about the following then. <br />The old covenant was flawed. Heb 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another” Because it was flawed, it’s sacrifices had to be repeated endlessly, and still couldn’t bring perfection (Heb10:1). Why would God make something flawed? He did it to show us that we are incapable of saving ourselves (Gal 3:24) and by this to lead us to Christ. The old covenant was only a shadow of what would come. Colossians 2:17 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”. Hebrews 10:1, “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.” The old covenant was fulfilled completely through the life of Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:17-18, “"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Luke 24:44, “He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." The new covenant has replaced the old covenant. The old covenant was abolished. Eph 2:15, “by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,”. Christ is the end of the law, (Romans 10:4). The law was the “ministration of death” and has been done way with (2 Cor 3:7). Jesus took away the first that he might establish the second. (Hebrews 10:5-9). The Law was nailed to the cross, (Col 2:14-16). Those who had been under it were delivered from it, (Romans 7:6) and are dead to it (Romans 7:4). It is obsolete. Hebrews 8:10,13 “ This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord” “By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear”. <br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-74447430291735909882011-01-24T19:00:37.368-05:002011-01-24T19:00:37.368-05:00Anonymous,
You said, "Whatever the 70th week...Anonymous,<br /><br />You said, "Whatever the 70th week of Daniel is trying to complete it is not the "Old Covenant"." You need to show me scripture that supports your opinion, and it needs to be more solid and less vague than "whatever". <br /><br />Because actually Daniel 9:24-27 explains EXACTLY what the Tribulation is completing, AND how long it will take.<br /> <br />Christians of the Church age will be raptured, and then the last 7 years of the uncompleted Old Covenant will resume, sacrifices and all, in the rebuilt Temple. The Old Testament and the New Testament are clear on this, with verses stating such. (Acts 15:14-17, for starters)<br /><br />Making statements about doctrine always must be supported by scripture. Otherwise they are just man's flawed opinionElizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-4205603974360059642011-01-24T18:31:38.575-05:002011-01-24T18:31:38.575-05:00I agree with Colorado. Christ is the end of the la...I agree with Colorado. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe, Rom 10:4. The New Testament is nothing if not emphatic about this. The Old Covenant cannot be reverted back to, because the New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant, Heb 8:13. By calling this one new the first one has been made obsolete.<br /><br />Whatever the 70th week of Daniel is trying to complete it is not the "Old Covenant". That would be impossible and is the reverse of everything the New Testament teaches.<br /><br />I thought the rest of your teaching on the rapture was right on though. Keep up the good work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-68875393600067301582011-01-23T19:53:55.899-05:002011-01-23T19:53:55.899-05:00Hi Colorado Columbine,
I was not aware that Dispe...Hi Colorado Columbine,<br /><br />I was not aware that Dispensationalism taught that there were two ways to be saved. If so, that teaching is in error. My understanding is that there have been different dispensations, or ways, God deals with His humans through various methods of reaching them. Conscience, Law, Grace, Millennium, etc.<br /><br />People since Adam and Eve in the garden have been saved by faith and not works, no matter what the dispensational period they were in. The Tribulation, however, will be a time of reverting back to finish the last 7 years of the Age of Law, the Old Covenant. People will be saved by faith but will have to demonstrate their faith thru sacrifices, (Rev 14:12) just as they did prior to the pause in time for the age of Grace to begin and then conclude. We in the Church Age, AKA the Age of Grace, have not been required to demonstrate our faith by sacrifices. There is one way to be saved: faith. But the people in the Tribulation will have to show their faith by sacrifices, that is why they rebuild the temple.(Dan 9:25)<br /><br />The Millennium is the fulfillment of the promise of God to have the Jews given their Kingdom, located in Israel, ruled over by the Messiah. Gentiles will re-populate the nations. The Millennium Age is a prophetic fulfillment for the Jews. Christians who come to faith in the Church age will not live on earth, but will live in the New Jerusalem which orbits earth. But we can visit earth anytime! <br /><br />I'm sorry if I wrote something that indicated to you that salvation is in anything but faith.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-29858814511866012262011-01-21T08:23:24.593-05:002011-01-21T08:23:24.593-05:00Although I was raised in a dispensational church a...Although I was raised in a dispensational church and attended a dispensational Bible college, I was never taught that the Church has not always believed this doctrine, nor when and where dispensational doctrine appeared in Church history, nor that there are differing views within the Church now as to End Times. Dispensationalism is fairly new, being somewhere around 200 years old. Nor did I understand that dispensationalism teaches two ways to be saved - one by grace through faith alone in Christ and his work on the cross, the other by human works - sacrifices in the Temple in the Old Testament, and sacrifices in the Temple during part of the Tribulation period, to which you also refered - and keeping the Law. Yet, no one was ever saved by those works in the Old Testament, but by faith in God and His promised Messiah (see all of Hebrews, especially 11)! <br /><br />I encourage you to check out these sites:<br />http://www.theologicalstudies.org/dispen.html<br />This site gives a good overview of the history of dispensationalism.<br />and <br />sermons on Revelation, located at http://www.spiritempoweredpreaching.com/sermons.htm (by Dr. Art Azurdia, Westminster Seminary, Portland, OR and The Spurgeon Fellowship) These are extemely comforting to me, even though I differ in my understanding of some of the events<br />and<br />http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00303GZHG/ref=s9_simh_gw_p351_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=15RVG7HMG0JVR6Q29W38&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 The Meaning of the Millenium: Four Views, edited by Robert G. Clouse. A good overview of the 4 main views, which also include the Rapture, not just the millenium.<br /><br />No matter which one a Christian believes, Christ WILL return one day. And I, along with you, believe that time is very close.ColoradoColumbinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831303862762448098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-14131178554661947232011-01-20T23:01:50.052-05:002011-01-20T23:01:50.052-05:00Lenzey, :)Lenzey, :)Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-21032409679990009302011-01-20T21:51:25.727-05:002011-01-20T21:51:25.727-05:00Words cannot express how much I loved this entry. ...Words cannot express how much I loved this entry. Amen!Lenzeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00825879754544213661noreply@blogger.com