tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post4650836537515504849..comments2023-10-07T04:07:56.527-04:00Comments on The End Time: Beth Moore: reactions to Living Proof teaching in Charlotte. Part 2, The MusicElizabeth Pratahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-8682225105678948572014-10-01T19:42:21.025-04:002014-10-01T19:42:21.025-04:00A-HA!! I was hoping that the masses would believe ...A-HA!! I was hoping that the masses would believe that the picture contained an innocent photo of a well known insect and a well-known bird, but your keen intellect and no-nonsense discernment has seen right through that, and spotted my ulterior motive- MIND CONTROLLLLLLL! You are getting verrrry sleeeepy...Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-37034878066290233522014-10-01T19:39:05.542-04:002014-10-01T19:39:05.542-04:00I do find it troublesome that your blog picture of...I do find it troublesome that your blog picture of clocks features an OWL and a BUTTERFLY. These are well known Illuminati, MK Ultra Mind Control, Bohemian Grove symbols. Makes me wonder if your objectives are not double-minded and duplicitious. Are you sure your agenda is pure?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-78674826969764894232013-02-25T16:51:38.942-05:002013-02-25T16:51:38.942-05:00Unknown,
As far as Samuel and David, we're no...Unknown,<br /><br />As far as Samuel and David, we're not talking about mounting up 3,000 men with swords and encamping an army around the false teachers. But since you bring up Saul, look what Samuel said to Saul:<br /><br />"“You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. “You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. But now your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the Lord’s command.”" (1 Sam 13:13-14)<br /><br />The prophet, at God's command, told the KING he was foolish, and that because of his foolishness he will lose the kingdom. Is he "attacking" the king? According to your definition of attack, yes, Samuel is. He is rebuking the king at the LORD'S command. We do the same by using the bible as the word of God whenever a leader does not follow the Lord's command, commands that are found in the bible.<br /><br />That aside, there is a difference between an “attack” and exposing false teaching. Here are two examples:<br /><br />Attack: Mrs So and So is a lousy mother and a wretch of a human being.<br />Exposing false teaching: Mrs So and So is a false teacher because she claims to have had extra biblical revelation and the bible says in Hebrews 1:2 that in these days he has spoken to us by His son.<br /><br />Attack: I hate that teacher because she lies and is having an affair with Mr So and So<br />Exposing false teaching: That teacher preaches a false doctrine, that Jesus was a sinner, yet the bible says He was without sin (John 1:35). Therefore I conclude she is false because if they preach a different Jesus, they are false (2 Cor 11:4)<br /><br />Do you see the difference?<br /><br />Further, attaching a discernment benchmark to their pleasantness is very dangerous. The bible says that false teachers will come to us as in sheep’s clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (Mt 7:15). This means they will outwardly be showing all the same qualities as a mature Christian. As Barnes’ Notes explains, “The sheep is an emblem of innocence, sincerity, and harmlessness. To come in sheep's clothing is to assume the appearance of sanctity and innocence, when the heart is evil.” Someone can seem to be patient and to love the word of God, but their heart is impatient and they hate the word of God. You have to examine what they preach and teach, and if it varies from the bible, you know they are false, no matter how patient they seem to be.<br /><br />So I hope these examples help you in discerning the difference between an attack and a discernment of false teaching, and that being pleasant is not an indicator of whether someone has good or bad intentions. In case these are not clear, here are two other resources for you:<br /><br />Bible verses that say to expose false teachers:<br />http://www.openbible.info/topics/exposing_false_teachers<br /><br />A biblical commentary on the verses that say to expose false teaching. I'll post the opening sentence and the conclusion:<br />http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Gal/Exposing-False-Teachers<br /><br />In his exposure of these false teachers, Paul gives us six identifying marks that can guide us to discern the presence of "wolves in sheep's clothing" in our midst today....It is never pleasant to expose the deceptive, destructive tactics of the "false brothers." But it is necessary to do so in order to protect the freedom of fellow Christians. Of course circumcision is not an issue today. But we are constantly faced with a choice between different religious options. They are not all the same; they are not all spokes on a wheel leading to the same hub. Some religious options lead to slavery and imprisonment. Only by obedience to the truth of the gospel of Christ can we protect the freedom that is ours in Christ.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-24726831394396055802013-02-25T13:03:32.036-05:002013-02-25T13:03:32.036-05:00Even David was cautious and did not attack Saul wh...Even David was cautious and did not attack Saul when he could have taken his life. I always think several times before I publicly criticize a minister or ministry. I would never want to attack one of God's servants. I may make a judgment personally as to whether I would benefit myself from a persons ministry but go no further. Is there Love, joy, peace, patience exhibited in the life of this person and do they love the word of God. Is there fruit from their ministry? These things cannot be faked.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07801176532602907723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-53638335501316243762012-09-12T04:41:16.894-04:002012-09-12T04:41:16.894-04:00Comparing the holy creatures praising God in the h...Comparing the holy creatures praising God in the heavenly temple and sinful man on babbling earth is a ridiculous comparison. Anyway, Jesus said in Matthew 6:7- "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking". I think that verse about covers the 7-11 songs...Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-86551098117736683232012-09-12T03:35:00.000-04:002012-09-12T03:35:00.000-04:00So I suppose 10 words repeated endlessly by God...So I suppose 10 words repeated endlessly by God's 4 living creatures (Rev 4:8) is not solid enough for you. Look man, I agree with a lot of your concerns, but I think we also have to compare our concerns against God's word. Nothing wrong with 7-11 per the Bible, so long as it's a God-honoring 7. And if it's a God-honoring 7, why would we be critical of singing it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-40876901816095747902012-08-15T16:18:32.047-04:002012-08-15T16:18:32.047-04:00MommaAsh,
I'm sorry you believe Beth Moore...MommaAsh,<br /><br />I'm sorry you believe Beth Moore's teaching to be "sound". That is a problem for you on the discernment level, and also especially since I used scripture to illustrate that it is NOT an opinion but a biblical issue for us all.<br /><br />I'd like to learn what you mean by your admonition to "be careful of making critical comments." You did respond with an opinion, because you used no examples to show how or where you feel BM's teaching is sound. Yet I used scripture in each of the parts of this series...so I think I need to understand form you why comparing a teaching to scripture and finding it lacking is "an opinion" and "critical."Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-45603011836711407272012-08-15T16:10:40.762-04:002012-08-15T16:10:40.762-04:00I just returned from a LPM event in TN & the t... I just returned from a LPM event in TN & the teaching was incredibly sound, Biblical, & the worship was beautifully done, not too loud at all! I'm the type of person who is very discerning when Christian teachers, preachers, & other leaders step outside the bounds of the Bible. Travis Cottrell is a gifted song writer who Lord most definitely uses & yet while people may let their emotions get the best of them & may look for the emotional parts to draw them, I seriously doubt he nor Beth are contemplating them & manipulating them to have some emotional connection, but rather letting the Lord speak through them & move as the Holy Spirit sees fit. Its up to each of us to have self-control & to draw into the presence of God as He leads us. I cry often in worship, not because a song draws my emotions, but because I'm in awe of what my Lord has done, where He has brought me from, & in everything that He is.<br /><br />Your opinion is just that, your opinion. But I caution you to be careful about making critical comments. When David danced before God he shed his robe in humiliation, being totally free of what others thought & simply worshipped as his spirit directed. Michal made critical judgements & the Lord cursed her. When she criticized David he told her could get even more undignified than that!<br /><br />Just because your personal style & preference is more quiet, conservative, & reserved doesnt mean those differing are false or manipulative. Over & over in Scripture when it makes references of music to the Lord its often LOUD! And I for one look forward to a LOUD trumpet shout from Heaven the day Jesus returns :) Blessings to you!MommaAshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588599316027687411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-39348897073854844432012-05-29T09:03:14.829-04:002012-05-29T09:03:14.829-04:00Hello Amy,
I am sorry you are sad. My intent was ...Hello Amy,<br /><br />I am sorry you are sad. My intent was not to sadden you, but to enlighten you- to the dangers of using music to emotionally manipulate congregants. I fear I have not made the point in your case.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-81585253017885743502012-05-29T08:55:30.636-04:002012-05-29T08:55:30.636-04:00This entire post makes me very sad. The gifts God...This entire post makes me very sad. The gifts God has blessed Beth Moore with in her ministry have led so many to Christ and a relationship with him. I am thankful for these people God has brought up to share his word. We all find God in different ways of worship. The studies of Beth Moore have taught me one thing for sure. It is not about me. She is one of the most humble people you could ever meet in awe of her Lord. May God bless you!Amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-73101737045980116792012-05-08T16:09:11.728-04:002012-05-08T16:09:11.728-04:00Oh my.Oh my.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-20885813407171075062012-05-08T10:08:11.328-04:002012-05-08T10:08:11.328-04:00I was visiting my mom in Houston this past easter ...I was visiting my mom in Houston this past easter and we went to her church. The "worship" team played "Celebration" by Kool and the Gang. My wife and I were the only ones that seemed to be upset by this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-65039032183164125762012-03-06T06:18:03.752-05:002012-03-06T06:18:03.752-05:00Hello Anonymous,
Your valid concerns go to the de...Hello Anonymous,<br /><br />Your valid concerns go to the definition of worship as applied to the music part of the service. What is worship? How do we do it? When does worship that is a variance with my neighbor's tip over into something that is not worship? When does a praise band either enhance the worship or hinder it? Here is a great article that answers your questions.<br />http://forsclavigera.blogspot.com/2012/02/open-letter-to-praise-bands.html<br /><br />The author asks some main questions and then answers them. He also defines worship.<br /><br />1. If we, the congregation, can't hear ourselves, it's not worship<br /><br />2. If we, the congregation, can't sing along, it's not worship.<br /><br />3. If you, the praise band, are the center of attention, it's not worship<br /><br />Here is where the author defines worship--<br />http://forsclavigera.blogspot.com/2012/02/postscript-to-open-letter-to-praise.html<br /><br />In the second link above, the author shows us that worship is not just expressive (us to God) but it is formative (God to us). He says "*How* we worship shapes us, and how we worship collectively is an important way of learning to be the body of Christ."<br /><br />I recommend reading both short essays and I believe they will go a long way toward answering your questions.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-30384026190741741062012-03-06T03:26:41.206-05:002012-03-06T03:26:41.206-05:00Right based on your standards or biblical standard...Right based on your standards or biblical standards? Where is the scripture that tells us how many decibels loud music can be, what type of lighting is acceptable, and how many beats per measure are too many? I would ask that you consider John 7:24 in regards to your comments while you are focusing on the splinter in another's eye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-15416425691893118352012-02-02T16:47:40.790-05:002012-02-02T16:47:40.790-05:00Beth Moore is not doing a great thing for God, unl...Beth Moore is not doing a great thing for God, unless it is that she is being used by discerning Christians as to what a counterfeit is. <br /><br />You should be more worried in this day of promised ticked ears and false teachers, that the dirt is being thrown on JESUS.<br /><br />Your reasoning of her ministry playing loud music, making money, and seeming to be a Christian are not the discerning components we are told to use when judging. I apply this verse to your comment, which failed to note any biblical response to any bible verse I'd used:<br /><br />"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-18509706739497747892012-02-02T16:29:04.072-05:002012-02-02T16:29:04.072-05:00While everyone has a different style and taste in ...While everyone has a different style and taste in music and that is okay. There should be a varity for all. I think Beth Moore is doing a great thing for God. He is using her because she allows herself to get deeper and deeper in a relationship with him. He blesses her. Sounds like a lot of you are just looking for an offense, just to be jealous. So what if she makes money doing what she is doing? She is also helping people, that seems to be her focus in all her studies I've done thus far. But there is always someone who has to talk about what God is doing through others. Even if you dont understand the purpose God placed on Beth or others you have no right trying to bring dirt oh her ministry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-91823349620965442102011-08-15T22:05:55.499-04:002011-08-15T22:05:55.499-04:00I don't take my cues from Scott Aniol. I take ...I don't take my cues from Scott Aniol. I take them from the Holy Spirit. I don't know about your beef with Mr Aniol, and if he errs in other areas then that needs to be addressed. The point I was making here about emotionalism and manipulation in worship when it becomes a theater were well stated in his words. I liked what he had to say in the quote. I am glad I used that quote and I stand by it.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-24427477624123793452011-08-15T21:58:36.922-04:002011-08-15T21:58:36.922-04:00Do not take your cues from Scott Aniol. He imbibed...Do not take your cues from Scott Aniol. He imbibed racist ideas at BJU and still holds a view of music which elevates European styles and therefore is suspicious of anything with black origins.<br /><br />He tries to pretend that the Bible backs him up, but when he is pressed, he resorts to cliches about a "sensual" beat that are straight out of 1970s films of the animalistic African.<br /><br />I'm not saying that your points about Beth Moore are not valid, just that you should make your own case and not bother to quote Aniol.Antheanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-55549878021176472742011-08-02T00:57:32.994-04:002011-08-02T00:57:32.994-04:00Anonymous posted: "All that matters is our he...Anonymous posted: "All that matters is our heart, and whether the center of our worship is Him. I used to be so critical of pentecostal style of worship because I belong to a more conservative denomination, but that perspective changed when I got invited to large pentecostal church. I would say I honestly see people worshiping God in wild abandon, the lyrics of the songs are purely God-centric"<br /><br />All that matters is our heart, yes and our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Even as saved people, we are prone to wander, and can fall into grave error. We can't just trust our hearts or others' hearts. Being Biblically critical is of UTMOST importance. But it won't gather you a large crowd of friends, especially at a man-centered church.terriergalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08801794520433439408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-78218784496692057852011-08-02T00:55:35.135-04:002011-08-02T00:55:35.135-04:00Regariding kids, I have three - 18, 15, and 12. T...Regariding kids, I have three - 18, 15, and 12. They understand the need for SOLID food even in music. They dont care for the 7-11 praise songs (7 words repeated 11 times) and have been taught exactly why music is so important and powerful. They listen critically so far (obviously differing somewhat by age). When we were kicked out of our old church for opposing purpose drivenism and seeker sensitive methodology (as well as our pastor's bad behavior) we did not hide these issues from our kids, who were 12, 9, and 6 at the time. They were taught that even though our ex church was behaving poorly they still ought to treat people there with respect and love.<br /><br />So, even though they are listening to different things on their own time, they know that church and worship is something different than just listening to music for enjoyment.terriergalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08801794520433439408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-47050669022510362462011-07-25T13:29:16.031-04:002011-07-25T13:29:16.031-04:00God sees through us, and it doesn't matter whe...God sees through us, and it doesn't matter whether the music is loud or soft. All that matters is our heart, and whether the center of our worship is Him. I used to be so critical of pentecostal style of worship because I belong to a more conservative denomination, but that perspective changed when I got invited to large pentecostal church. I would say I honestly see people worshiping God in wild abandon, the lyrics of the songs are purely God-centric. I love soft music more than loud music, but I think I've outgrown my tendency to be so critical. The only barometer I use when commenting on churches is whether they worship God with reverence, awe, and deep love.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-4741344498055177782011-07-25T11:03:15.903-04:002011-07-25T11:03:15.903-04:00Again, what you describe sounds much like a rock c...Again, what you describe sounds much like a rock concert. Why in the world do they always think they have to have everything so loud?!? Part of it, of course, is to build the emotions, which you noted by your own experience. The problem is, your emotions were not what they want to build! Your discernment led to more objectivity. Music is indeed a powerful driver of the emotions, and is indeed used to manipulate in many similar events to Beth’s, including all the false revivals and the churches who promote them.<br /><br />This is an excellent analysis, and I’m heading right for the next chapter!Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-268636522183898832011-07-24T15:33:05.987-04:002011-07-24T15:33:05.987-04:00I love worship. I love it. I think that Biblically...I love worship. I love it. I think that Biblically it is powerful, but it is not about us and our feelings; it has to be about HIM and His Majesty.<br /><br />I have noticed that there is even a trend in worship songs where the theme of the song is about "me" and "my problems" or "my feelings" or God meeting "my needs" -- I think this is so dangerous. Yes, God makes me feel good, and He meets my needs, but to call these songs worship kinda means we are worshiping ourselves.<br /><br />And like you said, there is something to be said about a man with a genuine heart to worship God alone on stage, truly worshiping God. <br /><br />This should be enough. Not like it needs to be the rule, but if what you feel for God is real, you don't need lights, or drums simulating it all. <br /><br />I love the music of Hillsong United, and there shows are very exciting, they use the lights and the drums and the screens. Everyone will stand and worship. But, I go to their shows to meet the Lord, not to be entertained. I go there because I believe that they worship God with sincerity in their personal lives, and I find in the lyrics of their songs the same verses that God has been speaking to me. I go worship there, but I spend more time next to my bed singing the same songs, alone. Just me and God, and that time is sweeter. It is about God.<br /><br />But,I do think though that people can be living in sin, and go to their show, put their hands in the air, have an emotional experience and then leave feeling close to God, but truly unchanged. That is scary. <br /><br />True worship is young David on playing for King Saul, and sending an evil spirit running. True worship is joining with the angels in heaven singing "Holy Holy Holy is the LORD God Almighty." True worship is King Jehoshaphat sending the worship team out ahead of the army, into battle. <br /><br />True worship is Paul and Silas sitting on a filthy prison floor, their legs in stocks, and praying and singing praise to God, despite their circumstances, not knowing that God was prepared to shake that prison and break those chains. <br /><br />True worship is about God, not me. <br /><br />Beth Moore is wrong. We need to stop thinking of ourselves so much. It becomes self-worship. We have situations and circumstances beyond our control. But it is not about that. It is about God. It is about His glory and worth, not any "holes" in my soul. I want to be emptied. His grace is sufficient. <br /><br />This is so important Elizabeth. Thanks for posting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-6151145116914696252011-07-24T15:05:21.299-04:002011-07-24T15:05:21.299-04:00According to Christianity Today' article: &quo...According to Christianity Today' article: "Living Proof Ministries is relatively small compared with the ministries of women of similar notoriety. Its total revenue in 2008, $3.8 million, is dwarfed by Joyce Meyer Ministries' ($112 million) and Kay Arthur's Precept Ministries' ($12.9 million) in the same year. (Meyer's ministry says its top priorities are evangelism and social outreach; Arthur's ministry mainly supplies resources for women to study the Bible inductively on their own; Moore's ministry is grounded in her unique gift of teaching.) Living Proof employs only 16 people, including Moore's two daughters and son-in-law." <br /><br />So let's say that three years later her total revenue is 5 million. She lives in the suburbs of Houston and attends Houston 1st Baptist church. I don't know about her house or other money habits. The CT article mentioned how tightly guarded she is with certain aspects of her life.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-43327542506304427222011-07-24T14:52:43.493-04:002011-07-24T14:52:43.493-04:00Concerning the part you said about Beth Moore. WOW...Concerning the part you said about Beth Moore. WOW! I guess my question here is, how rich is she? Does she live an extravagant life with all this money coming in? OR, does she give it all away and live a simple, but provided life? Dealing with this much money coming in can be very tempting.<br /><br /><><child of Godhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11635805396738062444noreply@blogger.com