tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post3284614030402467984..comments2023-10-07T04:07:56.527-04:00Comments on The End Time: Universalism, Billy Graham, and the precision of GodElizabeth Pratahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-90019216082739503412019-12-26T02:19:19.517-05:002019-12-26T02:19:19.517-05:00Matthew 7:21 is speaking to those who believe that...Matthew 7:21 is speaking to those who believe that their good works will get them into heaven. “Lord did we not...Bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508261430508625585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-67896002913301163872014-11-26T09:03:52.560-05:002014-11-26T09:03:52.560-05:00Alice, God does not send souls to be tormented as ...Alice, God does not send souls to be tormented as you described. That is our choice. God gave us a way to Him by grace of the cross. God died the death we deserve because He loves us. To be sent to eternal darkness is our choice and because God is a loving God, He honors that choice. We have free will and to want to be with him is our choice. Please reconsider when you say you are no longer a Christian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-90649260848104828632013-12-23T14:45:19.879-05:002013-12-23T14:45:19.879-05:00Hi Amy,
Bruce Olson's story is certainly amaz...Hi Amy,<br /><br />Bruce Olson's story is certainly amazing. He recounted it in the book Bruchko, which you mentioned. God raised up a man who was converted from a cold religiosity to a hot and fervent love for Christ. he responded to the call to go to the jungle and reach the Molitones. There were some wonderful moments in his long missional life, but some concerns too. One of those is the way Olson contextualized the Gospel to make it accessible to the Indians. The other concerns is the inordinate length of time Olson spent in the jungle with the Molitones before he even began sharing the Gospel.<br /><br />Here are two links to a book review- the first sums up the book and the second discusses the concerns with Olson's approach. They are written by Trevin Wax at The Gospel Coalition. The discussion concerns Trevin Wax raises are relevant today and good food for thought.Here are the links in case anyone is interested:<br /><br />http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2006/12/28/bruchko-the-story-of-bruce-olson/<br /><br />http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2006/12/29/my-thoughts-on-bruchko/<br />Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-52290430546856805742013-12-23T14:36:32.338-05:002013-12-23T14:36:32.338-05:00Don't forget Jeremiah 29:13--"And ye shal...Don't forget Jeremiah 29:13--"And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01835258402098577618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-32053207794172927062013-12-23T14:31:23.126-05:002013-12-23T14:31:23.126-05:00Amen! Read the book "Bruchko." It happ...Amen! Read the book "Bruchko." It happened just like that!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01835258402098577618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-33018705516909609612013-12-14T15:35:28.076-05:002013-12-14T15:35:28.076-05:00My name is Elizabeth, thanks.
You said, ‘The Bibl...My name is Elizabeth, thanks.<br /><br />You said, ‘The Bible's "eternal" punishment tells us what kind of punishment it will be, not how long it will last.”<br /><br />Tom, the bible is explicit that the punishment is eternal. Please leave off ‘suspecting’ about the ‘materials I read’ and put your eyes on the bible and read it. The bible is quite clear about the length of time sinners will be punished.<br /><br />Verses which speak to the eternality of the sinner’s punishment<br />Matt. 18:8, Matt. 25:46, 2 Thess. 1:9, Jude 7, Jude12-13<br /><br />You said, “As regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, maybe it's blasphemy to say that the loving Father will torture any soul for ever without end and without hope.”<br /><br />No, it is not blasphemy to say that the Holy Father will render punishment onto all who refused the way Holy and Sinless Jesus made with His atoning work. He is loving as you said, but He is HOLY. For justice to be done, He must address sin. Don’t forget that. As for hope, God has given man hope ever since He promised a savior to Adam and Eve. He sent His only son, and if a person rejected hope, then he rejected it. The onus is on the sinner.<br /><br />Here again are the bible verses which let you know that the eternity that awaits the unrepentant sinner is eternal punishment. God punishes the sinner (Jeremiah 50:31; Ezekiel 44:12; Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 2:9; Hebrews 10:29).<br /><br />Hell is real and the fire in which the sinner is punished is unquenchable. Here are the verses, Matt. 3:12, Mark 9:43.<br /><br />Here are some essays which expound on the eternality of the sinner’s hell.<br /><br />Is hell real? Is hell eternal?<br />http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html<br /><br />What does it mean that hell is eternal separation from God?<br />http://www.gotquestions.org/separation-from-God.html<br /><br />Why is the idea of eternal damnation so repulsive to many people?<br />http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-damnation.html<br /><br />video: Christ the Only Way. http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2008/02/video-christ-the-only-way.php<br /><br />Tim please accept these verses and links in the spirit they’re offered, to educate you on the truth and fact of the eternal punishment of the sinner. I certainly hope that your eternity is pointed in the right direction.<br />Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-2551438054010717742013-12-14T13:06:45.870-05:002013-12-14T13:06:45.870-05:00Dear Sister Liz!
Just want to share that very few...Dear Sister Liz!<br /><br />Just want to share that very few universalists have ever rejected salvation by Christ alone, or rejected judgment, hell or eternal punishment. I suspect it is the material you read that gives false witness against its wider-hope brothers and sisters.<br /><br />The Bible's "eternal" punishment tells us what kind of punishment it will be, not how long it will last. As regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, maybe it's blasphemy to say that the loving Father will torture any soul for ever without end and without hope.<br /><br />Indeed, there are some who will not be forgiven "in this world or the next". This is saying that they will, indeed, have to undergo punishment in the world to come, but not that the punishment is never-ending.<br /><br />Jesus said it's better to loose various parts of ourselves in the battle with sin, than to burn in hell (Mk 9 : 43 - 48). But then he goes on to say in the very next verse:<br />"For (gar) everyone will be salted with fire" (Mk 9:49).<br /><br />The word "for" (gar in the Greek) connects this comment with what's immediately before it (pitty the NIV misses it out).<br /><br />"everyone" of us, both saved and damned, is being salted one way or another -- either by our own discipline or by the fire of hell. But either way, it's a salting by fire -- a preserving and purifying that burns. This is the ongoing process described in the New Testament for both those who "are being saved" and those who "are perishing" (note the Greek present continuous eg 1 Cor 1:18).<br /><br />My prayer is that some of this will point you in the right direction.Tom.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-57205910904562024922013-12-13T09:46:39.955-05:002013-12-13T09:46:39.955-05:00So the question being posed here, as I understand ...So the question being posed here, as I understand it is essentially; how can a loving God allow people to go to Hell who've never had the opportunity to hear the gospel? The focus of the question seems to be on God's love. I think the real crux of the matter, however, is God's Providence. I will agree that I cannot believe that a loving God would send a soul, who could see God's hand in the creation yet never hearing the Gospel, to an eternal lake of fire. In fact, I do not believe He does, and it does not undermine His justice either. So, let me pose an alternative question; would God really leave a seeking soul without the Gospel? That is the real question that should be asked. This is a question that speaks to God's Providence, as I mentioned before. Do you really believe that the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is contained in them, the God who knows the number of hairs on your head, the Lord who parted the Red Sea, caused Balsam's ass to speak, and the sun to not set for a day, is somehow unable to raise up a preacher to go to "Bulah-bulah land" and bring the Gospel to one of His lost sheep? Of course He can! If there is a soul which can see the truth in God's creation, and cries out to know the unknown God (as yet to him) to reveal His truth to him, I guarantee that God is powerful AND caring enough to arrange for a meeting with the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Remember, our God is as a shepherd who SEEKETH after that which is lost, and diligent and faithful He is in that search. AMEN! He would never leave a soul, ready for the gospel without it. Brian G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15758872544894586866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-22158681886558554892013-12-12T21:38:27.395-05:002013-12-12T21:38:27.395-05:00Hi Alice, I'm sorry to hear that. It's dis...Hi Alice, I'm sorry to hear that. It's distressing to think of those who reject Him and their ultimate destiny, especially those closest to us. I hope by the grace of God you will reconsider someday before it's too late. You'll be in my prayers tonight.<br />JaneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-91051105618475677332013-12-12T21:38:20.360-05:002013-12-12T21:38:20.360-05:00Hi Anonymous,
No...everyone gets one chance, the ...Hi Anonymous,<br /><br />No...everyone gets one chance, the same chance. This link brings you to an essay explaining why the Millennium Kingdom<br />http://www.compellingtruth.org/millennium.html<br /><br />As for your husband, like any doctrine, it is not about what someone "thinks" it is about what is in the bible. He should show you the verses/passages which support his contention.<br /><br />As for the second chance particulars: the people who enter the Millennial Kingdom already believe in Christ, they need no second chance. The rest are the people who are born during the 1000 years, and they also have one chance to believe the Gospel, just as people did in the previous ages.<br /><br />As for anyone who is dead, they are set in their choice at the moment of death. "For it is appointed to die once, then the judgment." Heb 9:27<br /><br />This link brings you to an explanation of satan's loosing<br />http://www.gotquestions.org/release-Satan.htmlElizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-65876930652394801222013-12-12T14:27:41.953-05:002013-12-12T14:27:41.953-05:00Elizabeth, my husband thinks that the people who n...Elizabeth, my husband thinks that the people who never heard of the gospel will get their second chance in the millenial age. He thinks that God will give everyone a chance to accept him after hearing/knowing the gospel and that is why Satan is loosed again after the 1000 years and there is a final war. What do you think about this? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-71477117326408743882013-12-12T08:31:00.827-05:002013-12-12T08:31:00.827-05:00HI Jane, I had a very hard time accepting it, too,...HI Jane, I had a very hard time accepting it, too, but I did for awhile. I am no longer calling myself a Christian at this point. I have been writing about it on my blog for the last few months. <br /><br />Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380432930727921469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-4160234895618523602013-12-12T06:35:35.735-05:002013-12-12T06:35:35.735-05:00Anonymous, you might agree with Mr Graham's po...Anonymous, you might agree with Mr Graham's position, but you would be wrong. It is about the Son. (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 16:31). No one is saved by "instinct".<br /><br />I explained above that plainly seeing God's attributes in creation is only the first step. If it ended there, then every adherent in an earth-based religion would also be saved (Shamanism, Animism, Wicca, Hindi...)<br /><br />It is Jesus who makes the difference. Faith in Christianity is exclusively focused on Him. Salvation is only through Him. (John 14:6).<br /><br />Here is a good sermon explaining the Romans verses you alluded to.<br />http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-184/the-reality-of-gods-wrathElizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-19579559841856962092013-12-12T06:23:03.077-05:002013-12-12T06:23:03.077-05:0014 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on G...14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:14-18<br /><br />God determines what love and justice are, they are two of His attributes. Humans have twisted the meanings to mean what they want them to mean. I had trouble accepting this at first, but it's the truth, like it or not. His will be done.<br /><br />JaneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-28080644401993904022013-12-12T04:41:45.579-05:002013-12-12T04:41:45.579-05:00A loving God sent His own Son to die a cruel death...A loving God sent His own Son to die a cruel death for something that every person who has ever lived has done. Sin, it's wages are death. The greatest sin is that people would rather reject Him and blat about the consequences.<br />God IS just and that is exactly why hell exists.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05171219693651832856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-79047546016838676702013-12-11T22:02:07.357-05:002013-12-11T22:02:07.357-05:00I don't think everyone will be ultimately save...I don't think everyone will be ultimately saved, but I agree with Mr.Graham's position that those who have never heard of the Messiah, who lived in the remotest places where there are no Bibles, may just be forgiven by God if they respected the Creator as revealed in the sheer harmony of the universe and nature. That's what Romans is all about, that there is no excuse not to believe the Creator because He is in and around us. If you were not fortunate enough to have heard of the name "Jesus" at least try to reverence the Creator because that's what your instincts and conscience tells you - that He exists. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-18483256123566775952013-12-11T20:27:11.140-05:002013-12-11T20:27:11.140-05:00Anonymous, please read the above verses about Roma...Anonymous, please read the above verses about Romans. No, bibles aren't everywhere. The earth IS. Everyone who is born has eternity in their heart, a conscience, and ability to experience God's attributes. Also gave a link answering the question "What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?" It may help you.<br /><br />The notion of anyone going to hell is stressful for all of us. I wish all would be saved. Romans 1 explains many unfortunately suppress the truth in unrighteousness.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-67056581098166933032013-12-11T20:02:44.339-05:002013-12-11T20:02:44.339-05:00But, Elizabeth, you live in a world where Bibles a...But, Elizabeth, you live in a world where Bibles abound. What about those who've never seen a Bible? What about those in the most remote parts of the world where they will never hear the gospel? I'm not being argumentative...this causes me great stress to think that those who do not see nor hear a soul speak of Jesus will be judged the same way as those who heard, read, and turned away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-51386189954956489882013-12-11T17:14:41.607-05:002013-12-11T17:14:41.607-05:00"I embraced Universalism since it was the onl..."I embraced Universalism since it was the only way to make God loving"<br /><br />So...you remade God in your own image. Okey Dokey.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-27889409706229941792013-12-11T16:07:13.330-05:002013-12-11T16:07:13.330-05:00It makes God out to be a patsy and a liar.
And th...<i>It makes God out to be a patsy and a liar.</i><br /><br />And that is worse than making him the tormentor of souls for all eternity? Through my spiritual journey, I embraced Universalism since it was the only way to make God loving. Tormenting anyone forever is not loving in any way, shape, or form-nor is it just. <br /><br />An eye for an eye<br /><br />Eternal conscious torment for a 70 or 80 year life isn't just. Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380432930727921469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-26432294262014271472013-12-11T15:40:56.380-05:002013-12-11T15:40:56.380-05:00As to your query about how are people judged who n...As to your query about how are people judged who never heard the name of Jesus before...<br /><br />Romans 1:18-32 describes them. All humans have knowledge of God, no matter when they lived and no matter where they lived. Romans 1:19-20 explains,<br /><br />"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. "<br /><br />Then the verses go on to say what happens. Though His eternal attributes can plainly be seen in in creation, they deliberately suppress this truth (Romans 1:18) and they choose not to honor Him (Romans 1:20). The rest of the verses show what happens to a person the longer they deliberately suppress the truth.<br /><br />I am an example of salvation by this method. Though I was raised in an atheist home, I traveled a lot and plainly saw the complexity and beauty of the earth, the precision of the tides, the movement of the planets and the change of seasons. It was all so orderly, eventually I decided there must be a God. It seemed pretty clear.<br /><br />Though salvation does not come until one repents and believed the Gospel, the key here is that I did not deliberately suppress the truth, I saw plainly that through creation, God existed. Also, I felt deeply that there must be an eternity (Ecc 3:11) and since there is an eternity, someone must run it. The door was kept open in my mind, I never suppressed nor rejected, and at the right time the Spirit worked on my soul and then I claimed the name of Jesus and was saved.<br /><br />Here is more,<br />"What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?"<br />http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html<br />Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-41318575859725755132013-12-11T15:30:37.607-05:002013-12-11T15:30:37.607-05:00Hi Matt,
Yes, it is discussed on the other links ...Hi Matt,<br /><br />Yes, it is discussed on the other links I provided at the bottom and also at the link within the quote.<br /><br />In the late 1990s,1997 I believe, Mr Graham appeared on the Hour of Power, a show hosted by Robert Schuller from the Crystal Cathedral. The two men were talking about who is saved. Mr Graham said that because of God’s mercy, all will be saved. There are videos of this conversation a-plenty on youtube and blogs, and transcripts too. Then a few years later, in the early 2000s, Mr graham appeared on Larry King. Graham repeated the notion that all will be saved.<br /><br />People could not believe it, and the Billy graham Evangelistic Association was called to confirm. (even though both televised conversations were clear and in fact both hosts had asked Mr Graham to repeat his stance.) The BGEA responded that in fact Graham does believe this, and has since 1960 when he write about it in his Decision Magazine.<br /><br />Mr Graham’s long compromise with the world is evident in his life, if one cares to look. At his Crusades, he consigns many babes to darkness when they walk down the aisle and get to the front and sent to Roman Catholic and/or Rabbis if the seeker states they came from such a church. Mr Graham believes Catholicism to be Christian and former Pope John Paul to have been the world’s greatest evangelist. There’s more, but the documentation and context of his stance on universalism (aka (Wider Mercy Doctrine) can be found on the net. I’ll point you to two:<br /><br />http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-227<br />http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-233Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-72960351504728771382013-12-11T10:17:41.690-05:002013-12-11T10:17:41.690-05:00Hi Elizabeth,
Maybe this is discussed in some of ...Hi Elizabeth,<br /><br />Maybe this is discussed in some of the links you posted, but could you expand on this quote? Do you know in what context Graham was talking about?<br /><br />"They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."<br /><br /><br />Without knowing the context, the quote, to me, represents those people who have never heard about Jesus and how God would judge them.<br /><br />Which brings up a good question.... How does God judge those who have never heard his name before? Would Romans 2:12-15 be a good verse to see that people who have not heard about Jesus are actually judged differently then those who have heard?<br /><br />Thanks and appreciate your thoughts!<br />Matt Anoreply@blogger.com