tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post6587975616414386883..comments2023-10-07T04:07:56.527-04:00Comments on The End Time: 7 Questions God Asks, Losing Kirk Cameron trying Save Christmas, Doctrine, Mark Driscoll resigns, Hillsong & Vatican on gaysElizabeth Pratahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-19715391802198862342014-10-23T19:11:17.555-04:002014-10-23T19:11:17.555-04:00this is a spoof, right? Like The Onion or somethin...this is a spoof, right? Like The Onion or something...right? please say right.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-6276543814767608472014-10-22T20:00:37.523-04:002014-10-22T20:00:37.523-04:00Kirk Cameron: Halloween masks mocking Obama celebr...Kirk Cameron: Halloween masks mocking Obama celebrate Jesus defeating Satan<br />http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/kirk-cameron-halloween-masks-mocking-obama-celebrate-jesus-defeating-satan/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-88028986546859256672014-10-19T20:59:23.049-04:002014-10-19T20:59:23.049-04:00Hi Elizabeth,
Sola Sisters did a masterful job co...Hi Elizabeth,<br /><br />Sola Sisters did a masterful job covering all the details about Driscoll. I am in agreement, the man never was qualified to be a pastor from the get go. What has been done by him throughout the years has brought so much reproach on Christ's name. <br /><br />I also have deep concerns about the spiritual health (honestly, the lack thereof) at Mars Hill. I see them as having a serious systemic problem, stemming from their leadership, who cannot seem to (or worse, do not want to) understand 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 plainly as written, since they wrongly believe MD is not disqualified from the pastorate. I agree, these goings on are the Lord's sifting the tares from the wheat.<br /><br />Very sad to see the direction Kirk Cameron is heading, much prayer is needed there. <br /><br />Hillsong is no shock. <br /><br />-CarolynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-30197122008062496372014-10-19T20:13:22.461-04:002014-10-19T20:13:22.461-04:00Roman Catholic dogma says, faith alone is not enou...Roman Catholic dogma says, faith alone is not enough.<br /><br />"As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." 44 DV 9 Cathechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm<br /><br />That the scriptures are not for the people.<br /><br />"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome"<br /><br />Catechism of the Catholic Church (958) discusses the unbiblical notion of purgatory, and worse, intercessory prayers for the dead.<br /><br />RCC believes and teaches that salvation is not complete, meaning the Lord's grace is not complete nor is His work complete. RCC dogma says, Those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030)<br /><br />there are many examples of the unbiblical nature of Catholic Dogma. This is not a Catholic debate site, but if you care to go to an ex-Catholic's site, Mike Gendron, you can learn more about why those who believe in grace alone and faith alone have assurance of salvation and attainment of heaven, without tradition or works, purgatory or anything else except Christ's FINISHED work on the cross. By the way, Jesus is not still on the cross. . go here http://pro-gospel.org/Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-79902460811652174172014-10-19T20:01:12.726-04:002014-10-19T20:01:12.726-04:00Dan said:
Unfortunate that you deleted the "...Dan said:<br /><br />Unfortunate that you deleted the "Catholic Stuff", but I guess I'm not surprised. Perhaps you can re-read it on your own time as you seem to have grave misunderstandings about the Catholic Church. Perhaps you could point out exactly where the Catholic Church has it wrong on justification in the sources I provided? And when, exactly, in history DID the Church get it right?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-88833403118635029032014-10-19T19:10:57.013-04:002014-10-19T19:10:57.013-04:00Dan,
I agree. Primary sources are best. That'...Dan,<br /><br />I agree. Primary sources are best. That's why I read the catechisms, Papal bulls, Pope speeches, and doctrine. The truth is, what I said originally<br /><br />the Catholic Church has caved on the largest issue of all: salvation through grace alone, who Jesus is, hell, and other fundamental biblical stances. Sure, they are kinda moral on some social issues, but so are the Mormons, Buddhists, and Quakers. The RCC is a satanic organization founded by the devil and run by unsaved, unregenerated men, many of whom were shown to be pedophiles. They are not related to the One True God in any way. Sorry.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-87323809855693876972014-10-19T19:09:34.609-04:002014-10-19T19:09:34.609-04:00Dan
Dan has left a new comment on your post "...Dan<br /><br />Dan has left a new comment on your post "7 Questions God Asks, Losing Kirk Cameron trying S...":<br /><br />Elizabeth: Here's what the Catholic Church actually teaches -- if you care to dig deeper and not delete my post. It's always best to start with the primary sources when forming an opinion about anything....<br />Blessings,<br />Dan<br /><br />[This comment has been edited to delete the Catholic stuff]Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-85513681330044936552014-10-19T18:15:59.245-04:002014-10-19T18:15:59.245-04:00Irrespective of location or building type, my unde...Irrespective of location or building type, my understanding is that "a local church" is the body of people who meet on a regular basis under submission to overseers and elders for praise, worship, song, edification, teaching and training in righteousness.<br /><br />The local church is somewhat organized because the pastor must give an account for our souls. As the canon was written, we do have biblical prescriptions for church structure under leadership of godly elders and overseers.<br /><br />"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17.<br /><br />That's why we become 'members' so the pastor knows which sheep are his.<br /><br />Acts 20:28 also says, <br />"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood."<br /><br />They have to know which are their flock. It's one reason why the multi-site, casual approach doesn't work.<br /><br />1 Corinthians 16:16 and 1 Thessalonians 5:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 11:8 also speak to an identified membership in a local congregation or church. The Greek word is ekklesia- it means assembly.<br /><br />As for location, the first century church met in houses, (Acts 1:13) barns, outside, the temple, and the synagogues. The edifice does not matter, the bible does not state one way or another as to where to meet, but IS clear on what is to happen when we do meet. <br /><br />Though I'm personally fond of churches looking like churches. If the people are supposed to be distinctive, so should the building.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-26790696623896288322014-10-19T17:51:06.425-04:002014-10-19T17:51:06.425-04:00That's something I'll have to think about....That's something I'll have to think about. Yes, my understanding is that the Church is no less than the sum total of all believers on earth, and not to be confused with a congregation, but I had the idea that a 'church' is simply a building, and so the idea of a local church to me was merely a group of people meeting for auspiciously Christian purposes in said building, no matter how broken their interrelationships might be.<br /><br />If the believers in a local church are a "congregation," and the church building is the "edifice," could you elucidate which of these (also throwing in "leadership" as distinct from the congregation if you draw such a distinction) is the subject of your comment? I'm not prying for something to criticize, but just hoping to get the nuance straight so that I understand you from a sheerly grammatical perspective.<br /><br />And pardon me if it's tedious, that I've kept questioning on the point. 'Really doing it for the sake of understanding, promise.Hakam Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10114741274619345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-33052555396682181122014-10-19T17:22:48.003-04:002014-10-19T17:22:48.003-04:00I'll just be safe and qualify that I know we b...I'll just be safe and qualify that I know we both understand the difference between the global church and a local church. Driscoll's Mars Hill was a local church.<br /><br />From MacArthur, on a church's priorities:<br /><br />The first thing a church should be is have a high view of God. <br /><br />The second thing a church should be is have a high view of Christ. <br /><br />Third, a church that is consumed with the glory of God and the majesty of Christ is really going to be a wholesome, healthy, holy place<br /><br />Fourth, it is a place where the Scripture is exalted<br /><br />None of these describe Mars Hill. Mars Hill fails because its founder and pastor does not adhere to seeking the fundamental priorities of a local church.<br /><br />Further, it is a flat screen church. MacArthur on flat screen churches:<br /><br />"I don’t think there’s any place in the life of the church for a flat screen pastor, I really don’t. Look, if you’re going to be a pastor, what is required of you if you’re going to be a pastor? You go to 1 Timothy 3, you go to Titus 1, and it lays it out. Your life has to be above reproach. You have to have proven that you’re the leader of your family. You have to be hospitable. You have to be not given to anger. It gives you all those qualifications. How do you know anything about a flat-screen face three miles away from where you are? What kind of shepherding is that? What kind of pastor is that? That’s no pastor at all. That is not a pastor."<br /><br />So Mars Hill failed biblical standard because of its multi-site set-up.<br /><br />Mars Hill was founded on grunge Christianity, entertainment musical worship, and emerging church ideals (an unhealthy focus on the culture)<br /><br />http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A172/Grunge-Christianity<br />"The problem with the "grunge" approach to religion is that it works against the sanctifying process. In fact, in one of the messages I listened to, Driscoll actually boasted that his sanctification goes no higher than his shoulders. His defense of substitutionary atonement might help his disciples gain a good grasp of the doctrine of justification by faith; but the lifestyle he models--especially his easygoing familiarity with all this world's filthy fads--practically guarantees that they will make little progress toward authentic sanctification."<br /><br />So Mars Hill fails because its teaching, its raison d'etre, (grunge, relevant, emerging) works against sanctification<br /><br />We already discussed how Mars Hill failed because its founder and pastor fails qualifications of overseer. So do its elders.<br /><br />Can a church founded by an unregenerate man on unbiblical reasons with multi-site campuses and an unhealthy attachment to the culture which works against sanctification, actually be a church? No.<br /><br />Can Mars Hill folk edify, have fellowship, build each other up? Yes. But it's not in spirit and in truth. It's just in the flesh. Can good fruit come from a bad tree? No. It is the same with a Catholic church. Or a Mormon Church. Or a Jehovah's Witness church. Or Osteen's Lakewood Church. Can those folks get together, hear some scripture, enjoy fellowship, and build each other up? Sure. But not in biblical truth. Those churches have no kingdom relevance.<br /><br />Can the Masons build each other up, hear some scriptures, have fellowship? Sure. So can the Rotarians, the Kiwanis and the Shriners. They aren't churches either. They are clubs.<br /><br />Driscoll was outside the true Vine. Can any good come from being apart from the vine? No. John 15:1-3, Mt 7:15-20.<br /><br />Jesus was not growing Mars Hill Church. I'm NOT saying that all the people there are not saved. I'm saying that that Jesus was not its head. So that is my thinking on that. Mars Hill was a phenomenon. But it wasn't a church.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-90738113136027655052014-10-19T16:37:25.724-04:002014-10-19T16:37:25.724-04:00"A question, where does it say in the bible i..."A question, where does it say in the bible if you resign you are forever disqualified from service? I missed that one."<br /><br />Sorry, I wasn't specifying that I was focusing on this context (specifically, then, it seems that if you resign, that pretty much ensures you fail the "of good report with those outside," qualification). I wouldn't hold to it if it could be seen that circumstances changed so that the qualification was no longer disqualifying him (in other words, if his reputation changed, perhaps he could pastor some day again...but I hesitate because I wonder what sort of stumbling block that might be to those who've been hurt).<br /><br />"Please do not assume or go on hunches, something you accused me of but did yourself anyway."<br /><br />In my defense, I wanted to express a concern but not state either way what you were doing, (I left room for it being special knowledge) just what it could look like to someone without your level of understanding of the issue. Just intending to leave it for your consideration. <br /><br />Rather than argue the details, which I have no motivation to do, since I openly affirm that I'm speaking without a deep level of knowledge on Driscoll (having essentially only seen the youtube video clips of him teaching, which are arguably selected by the uploaders for being the best, and therefore not likely to showcase issues in the church), I'd like to ask, since I've had trouble finding the details, if you could link to where you might've blogged in more explicit about what you're mentioning in point 5 etc, so I can rest my conscience about it. As noted, the main reason for me pushing back a bit here is because I don't know enough to feel comfortable heartily agreeing with the forceful condemnation you're making. Thanks if you do.<br /><br />But looking back at your replies, I just want you to know that I wasn't arguing that Driscoll was disqualified. I was more concerned with how you made the apparent leap from his disqualification to = "his church is a false church." <br /><br />I don't think even the 7 churches in Revelation (excluding Laodicea which was described as apostate), despite the issues in some of them, were still considered "churches" and weren't regarded as false churches or apostate, again, notwithstanding the 7th to the contrast of the other 6.<br /><br />So all I was really hoping to say was that even if Mark's a bad bad guy, does that mean that when the members were going to church that they weren't really going to church? They weren't "encouraging and building up one another" (1 thess 5:11), they weren't "serving one another" (Galatians 5:13), they weren't "instructing one another" (Romans 15:14)?<br /><br />I find that a very hard statement to follow. Not the Mark thing. Amen to that. But can you justify the "it's not a true church" statement? I have a hard time seeing the connection.<br /><br />Thanks, <br />Hakam Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10114741274619345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-54664633772376380112014-10-19T16:07:30.211-04:002014-10-19T16:07:30.211-04:00---continued from above----
As to #4, I have read...---continued from above----<br /><br />As to #4, I have read testimonies of ‘the average attendant’ how Driscoll behaved. Driscoll disqualified himself on many fronts by a pattern of abusive behavior. As a matter of fact, he was never qualified to begin with. He never met the qualifications outlined in the bible, but simply started a church one day after he claimed “God spoke to me.” There never was a submission to elders, an accountability, a training up, or any eldership anointing for Driscoll.<br /><br />As to #5, Mars Hill “orthodoxy” was never orthodox. Not unless you include the Pastor’s pornographic divinations, audible speakings of God, claims of personal revelation, warped view of husband-wife relationships, bullying, lack of accountability, disdain of the pulpit, swearing, and the Rape of the Song of Solomon as orthodox. Orthodox? Hardly!<br /><br />As for MH elders, they demonstrated a pattern of silence and collusion with Driscoll. The ones who spoke up were fired, the elders who allowed this will be called to account. BIBLICAL Church discipline was not followed. (Matthew 18:15-17). They failed James 4:17 and also engaged in the sin of tolerating sin (Rev 2:20). If they didn’t know Driscoll was sinning then they should be disqualified as elders.<br /><br />In addition, the elders who remained stated publicly that the only disqualifying benchmarks they held Driscoll to were “ immorality, illegality or heresy.” I maintain that Driscoll drifted into heresy when he preached the Song of Solomon in Scotland, which caused a furor, walkouts, a stern letter of rebuke from John MacArthur (which “pastor” Driscoll dismissed in front of his elders in scorn and disgust, again, an indicator of disqualifying behavior) and ignored entreaties from other pastors who spoke to him from outside of Mars Hill for his abuse of those scriptures.<br /><br />I further maintain that the elders, as I said in the essay, are either willfully ignorant of the qualifications of pastor, or are willfully setting them aside. In either or both cases, this disqualifies the elders from leadership. <br /><br />If the pastor *and* the elders are not adhering to biblical qualifying standards, and allow a long-term pattern of abuse and reproach, ignore entreaties from congregants and peers in the faith, then it’s not a church. <br /><br />I DO paint with a broad brush, because the bible does. The scripture says in 1 Timothy 3:2, “overseers should be above reproach.” Pretty broad standard.<br /><br />I offer to you this essay, Should Fallen Pastors Be Restored? http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/a256/should-fallen-pastors-be-restored<br /><br />Please read it, it might bring light to the parts of this issue you’re missing. I welcome challenges to what I’ve stated and earnest questions of how my thinking brought me to a certain point, but I would also remind you that it is better to ask questions and get information before rebuking, something I myself need reminding of also.<br /><br />---end---Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-7398242506142925202014-10-19T16:07:00.314-04:002014-10-19T16:07:00.314-04:00My dear young, pseudonymous Hakam Adam,
I thank y...My dear young, pseudonymous Hakam Adam,<br /><br />I thank you for your concerns, and I’m grateful you give me an opportunity to dispel them. This will be in two parts. <br /><br />A question, where does it say in the bible if you resign you are forever disqualified from service? I missed that one. This would mean that David Platt, who resigned to take a job as IMB president, can never be a pastor again, or Don Green, who resigned as one of the pastors at Grace Community Church to plant a new church can't be the pastor of his new church. I'm confused by your statement. Help me out by leading me to the scriptures.<br /><br />1. You assume I said what I said carelessly. I did not. Please do not assume or go on hunches, something you accused me of but did yourself anyway.<br /><br />2. You make a mistake to claim that theology and behavior in pastors and elders should be separated. You’re wrong, morally and theologically.<br /><br />3. You use an Old Testament example to make a New Testament claim. This is an error.<br /><br />4. I do have some more knowledge.<br /><br />5. Mars Hill was never orthodox.<br /><br />As to #1, I never write anything I haven’t carefully considered, researched and prayed over. Mt 12:36 says we must give an account for every careless word we utter. Therefore I try very hard to minimize the carelessness. <br /><br />As to #2, Pastors and elders are held to a theological standard AND a moral standard. As a matter of fact, MOST of the qualifications are behavioral/moral and NOT theological. They can be found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.<br /><br />As to #3, David was a sinner, yes, as we all are. However, he paid dearly for his sins. Though he was a man after God’s own heart, anointed king, and selected personally by God Himself, when David sinned, there were consequences. For example, his moral failures caused David to be DISQUALIFIED from building the temple -because he was a man of war and had shed blood, some of that blood he shed was the blood of Bathsheba’s husband. (1 Chron 28:3). His sins caused the DEATH of his own son. And worse, read 2 Sam 12 to see the list of David’s sins, and the promised as consequences. Many consequences and disqualifications there due to moral failures. David was forgiven, but he suffered for it.<br /><br />In the NT, Paul talked about himself being disqualified. He beat his body into submission ‘so that I myself will not be disqualified’ he said in 1 Cor 9:27. He was talking about being morally disqualified if his body should become master and if he let it lead and rule him. <br /><br />continued below<br />Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-41788012357990570532014-10-19T13:53:27.045-04:002014-10-19T13:53:27.045-04:00If you resign from a pastorship, you *are* disqual...If you resign from a pastorship, you *are* disqualified from future service. <br /><br />But I want to register a concern with this:<br /><br />"By no stretch of the imagination can Hillsong, Mars Hill or the Catholic Church be considered true churches."<br /><br />Unless you have access to more personal information of the situation at Mars Hill, I don't think you can say this. Perhaps you could be right, but it wouldn't be a truth you could *know* to be true, you'd just be right on a hunch. And we shouldn't ever base theological judgments on hunches. There were all sorts of abuses, apparently, at Mars Hill, but how much of that affected the average attendant? The theology, as even Tim Challies (a very particular man if there was one) asserted, was accurate and orthodox. <br /><br />The basis of whether a church is "false" or "true" seems to me should be a theological judgment. Let's not deny the blatant reality that total theological orthodoxy doesn't have anything to do with the personal sins of those who hold to it. Classic Biblical example: David: the adulterer, murderer, etc, who was so on the ball with his worship that most of the Psalms are his, for our edification. Are we not to learn from what came out of his mouth because of how poorly he handled his own house from time to time? <br /><br />I would say that Mars Hill would be an unhealthy church, but it's still a church. I think you're painting with too broad a brush when you say that a theologically orthodox church which has issues of sin in the congregation (a point of reminder: that's EVERY church) is comparable to one that not only has sinful abuses but isn't even orthodox on any single doctrinal issue except the existence of the trinity, making it utterly heretical. <br /><br />All I would want is some measured concern rather than condemning all the people associated as being members of some pagan community, when there is no indication that the church is struggling to maintain orthodoxy, only in putting it in practice.<br /><br />Hope you don't see this as an attack, but I put this much thought into it because I really want you to not be careless in statements like the above one of yours I quoted.<br /><br />And maybe you have the bona fide gift of discernment, and can know this without being involved. But then I would ask you to be gracious to the weaker brethren, and not put a stumbling block out for those of us who can't rely on hunches alone but have to go more carefully in our studies of current ecclesiastical events so that we don't make mistakes.<br /><br />Thanks,Hakam Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10114741274619345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-50203241369931404802014-10-19T06:59:20.371-04:002014-10-19T06:59:20.371-04:00Thank you, Mr Stephen!Thank you, Mr Stephen!Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-16987284185514046132014-10-19T06:43:29.512-04:002014-10-19T06:43:29.512-04:00Dan, the Catholic Church has caved on the largest ...Dan, the Catholic Church has caved on the largest issue of all: salvation through grace alone, who Jesus is, hell, and other fundamental biblical stances. Sure, they are kinda moral on some social issues, but so are the Mormons, Buddhists, and Quakers. The RCC is a satanic organization founded by the devil and run by unsaved, unregenerated men, many of whom were shown to be pedophiles. They are not related to the One True God in any way. Sorry.Elizabeth Pratahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341086233512507156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-72184959012422993482014-10-19T01:04:00.243-04:002014-10-19T01:04:00.243-04:00Sorry -- but only the Catholic Church (maybe the ...Sorry -- but only the Catholic Church (maybe the Orthodox Church as well) has managed to preserve it's stance on numerous issues the rest of the Christian world has caved on (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) I think you need to dig deeper... http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/10/18/pope_francis_speech_at_the_conclusion_of_the_synod/1108944Dan Carollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681917671041252830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2736720231951988221.post-21149287686069846702014-10-18T14:29:47.848-04:002014-10-18T14:29:47.848-04:00I've also noted Kirk Cameron's lukewarmnes...I've also noted Kirk Cameron's lukewarmness; I hope he pulls it back (or gets a huge wake-up slap).<br />A "church" that can't take a Biblical stand on the sin of homosexuality should not be counted as a Christian church.<br />Good informative article, Elizabeth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com