- Get link
- X
- Other Apps
- Get link
- X
- Other Apps
This portion of the "teaching" I'm discussing in this essay is a minute long. Her "teaching" in its entirety is longer, about 4 min. The original video I'd included which the transcription is from, has been deleted by Moore. Most copies of it I have been able to find online are marked "not available." I found that I had downloaded a copy from someone on Youtube who included some verses along with an inter-title caption. His video started a few seconds after the original one, so that is why there are a few sentences of a transcription that don't appear on the video.
Transcription: "... to beg to differ with people that are ten times smarter than I am. But I want to say to you I see something different than that. I see God doing something huge in the body of Christ. I do not know why I have had the privilege to get to travel around, see one church after another...one group of believers after another, interdenominationally, all over this country, but I have gotten to see something that I think is huge. And I'll also suggest to you I am not the only one. And tonight I'm going to do my absolute best to illustrate to you something that God showed me out on that back porch. He put a picture...I've explained to you before I am a very visual person...so He speaks to me very often of putting a picture in my head. And it was as if I was raised up looking down on a community, as I saw the church in that particular dimension- certainly not all dimensions, not even in many, but in what we will discuss tonight, the church, as Jesus sees it, in a particular dimension."
Do you know how crazy this sounds? Do you know how wrong this is? Do you know the danger you are in if you believe her?
I had seen that clip of her saying Jesus took her up and showed her the world in HIS dimension a few days ago. I was impacted greatly by it: horrified, aghast, astounded would be words to describe my thoughts and feelings when I heard that from Mrs Moore... and days later I am still feeling that way.
She literally said that God somehow mentally or emotionally or spiritually (Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know) took her into a dimension above the world to show her how Jesus sees His bride, effectively saying she was seeing thru Jesus eyes. Didn't satan do that to Jesus, take Him up and show to Him all the world's kingdoms? (Mt 4:8) Didn't the Lord lift up Paul and show Him things, but which no man is permitted to tell? (2 Cor 12:4). Apparently women are, though. Is Mrs Moore more special than Paul? Has God changed His mind on permissions since then? The only conclusion I can make is that God changed His mind on the lifting up and the telling, or it is satan showing her these things. You can guess which one of these two I believe.
The rampant problem of Christians who teach and preach that personal visitations from God are the normative experience are actually chipping away at the foundational truths from the bible which is the ONLY revelation now. (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Yes, God can do what He wants, and He can give revelation, but is He behind personal visitations and whispers and visions? That is the question. I believe the answer is no. He has said that currently He wants us to know Him through Jesus, who is the Word and His word is found in the bible. I go back to Hebrews 1, and also Revelation 22;18,"warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book." Revelation is the last book and with that admonishment, the canon closed. There is no new "seeing thru Jesus eyes" to be gained. It is all in the bible.
What Mrs Moore is saying is that God gave her a special revelation that is apart from the bible and subsequently she is here to teach us about it.
If we accept that we have authoritative word from the bible, PLUS Mrs Moore's visions, PLUS Bill Hybels' whispers, PLUS Colton Burpo's visit to heaven, PLUS Mary K Baker's visit to hell...where does it end? I say to one and all it ended at Revelation 22. You can read about it more here at MacArthur's site, "Does God still give revelation?"
The canon of scripture is closed. I do not believe Jesus is continuing to give authoritative revelation, and certainly none that we accept as a "teaching" about His church
From GotQuestions about the canon:
"The acquisition of knowledge regarding such things as the true nature of God, the origin of the universe and life, the purpose and meaning of life, the wonders of salvation, and future events (including the destiny of mankind) are beyond the natural observational and scientific capacity of mankind. The already-delivered Word of God, valued and personally applied by Christians for centuries, is sufficient to explain to us everything we need to know of Christ (John 5:18; Acts 18:28; Galatians 3:22; 2 Timothy 3:15) and to teach us, correct us, and instruct us into all righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)."
I reject Mrs Moore's claims of being raised up to see the church in another dimension as Jesus sees it.
We don't need to listen to individuals who say they have had a vision of being lifted up into His dimension, when Jesus came into OUR dimension to tell us, all of us. I'm grieved daily that people increasingly show us by their acceptance of heaping up these teachers who tickle the ears that His intrusion into our dimension was not enough. Now we must go to His, and come back and tell. This is what I mean by the current belief in the bible's insufficiency. God does have a vision for His church and that vision is contained in the bible. Listening to one person's extra-biblical revelations about what God showed her and her alone, and through Jesus's eyes no less, is dangerous in the extreme.
I see these things being said from people within what was once a conservative denomination, and I see and hear others even in churches around me here in GA saying similar, and I wonder, 'have they all gone mad??' but the answer is yes, I fear. It is as though as the Lord lifts His hand in ending the Church Age, the delusion that will come upon the whole world is infiltrating even now (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).
Tweet
Transcription: "... to beg to differ with people that are ten times smarter than I am. But I want to say to you I see something different than that. I see God doing something huge in the body of Christ. I do not know why I have had the privilege to get to travel around, see one church after another...one group of believers after another, interdenominationally, all over this country, but I have gotten to see something that I think is huge. And I'll also suggest to you I am not the only one. And tonight I'm going to do my absolute best to illustrate to you something that God showed me out on that back porch. He put a picture...I've explained to you before I am a very visual person...so He speaks to me very often of putting a picture in my head. And it was as if I was raised up looking down on a community, as I saw the church in that particular dimension- certainly not all dimensions, not even in many, but in what we will discuss tonight, the church, as Jesus sees it, in a particular dimension."
Do you know how crazy this sounds? Do you know how wrong this is? Do you know the danger you are in if you believe her?
I had seen that clip of her saying Jesus took her up and showed her the world in HIS dimension a few days ago. I was impacted greatly by it: horrified, aghast, astounded would be words to describe my thoughts and feelings when I heard that from Mrs Moore... and days later I am still feeling that way.
She literally said that God somehow mentally or emotionally or spiritually (Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know) took her into a dimension above the world to show her how Jesus sees His bride, effectively saying she was seeing thru Jesus eyes. Didn't satan do that to Jesus, take Him up and show to Him all the world's kingdoms? (Mt 4:8) Didn't the Lord lift up Paul and show Him things, but which no man is permitted to tell? (2 Cor 12:4). Apparently women are, though. Is Mrs Moore more special than Paul? Has God changed His mind on permissions since then? The only conclusion I can make is that God changed His mind on the lifting up and the telling, or it is satan showing her these things. You can guess which one of these two I believe.
The rampant problem of Christians who teach and preach that personal visitations from God are the normative experience are actually chipping away at the foundational truths from the bible which is the ONLY revelation now. (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Yes, God can do what He wants, and He can give revelation, but is He behind personal visitations and whispers and visions? That is the question. I believe the answer is no. He has said that currently He wants us to know Him through Jesus, who is the Word and His word is found in the bible. I go back to Hebrews 1, and also Revelation 22;18,"warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book." Revelation is the last book and with that admonishment, the canon closed. There is no new "seeing thru Jesus eyes" to be gained. It is all in the bible.
What Mrs Moore is saying is that God gave her a special revelation that is apart from the bible and subsequently she is here to teach us about it.
If we accept that we have authoritative word from the bible, PLUS Mrs Moore's visions, PLUS Bill Hybels' whispers, PLUS Colton Burpo's visit to heaven, PLUS Mary K Baker's visit to hell...where does it end? I say to one and all it ended at Revelation 22. You can read about it more here at MacArthur's site, "Does God still give revelation?"
The canon of scripture is closed. I do not believe Jesus is continuing to give authoritative revelation, and certainly none that we accept as a "teaching" about His church
From GotQuestions about the canon:
"The acquisition of knowledge regarding such things as the true nature of God, the origin of the universe and life, the purpose and meaning of life, the wonders of salvation, and future events (including the destiny of mankind) are beyond the natural observational and scientific capacity of mankind. The already-delivered Word of God, valued and personally applied by Christians for centuries, is sufficient to explain to us everything we need to know of Christ (John 5:18; Acts 18:28; Galatians 3:22; 2 Timothy 3:15) and to teach us, correct us, and instruct us into all righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)."
I reject Mrs Moore's claims of being raised up to see the church in another dimension as Jesus sees it.
We don't need to listen to individuals who say they have had a vision of being lifted up into His dimension, when Jesus came into OUR dimension to tell us, all of us. I'm grieved daily that people increasingly show us by their acceptance of heaping up these teachers who tickle the ears that His intrusion into our dimension was not enough. Now we must go to His, and come back and tell. This is what I mean by the current belief in the bible's insufficiency. God does have a vision for His church and that vision is contained in the bible. Listening to one person's extra-biblical revelations about what God showed her and her alone, and through Jesus's eyes no less, is dangerous in the extreme.
I see these things being said from people within what was once a conservative denomination, and I see and hear others even in churches around me here in GA saying similar, and I wonder, 'have they all gone mad??' but the answer is yes, I fear. It is as though as the Lord lifts His hand in ending the Church Age, the delusion that will come upon the whole world is infiltrating even now (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).
Tweet
Comments
The clip stops too soon. It doesn't show what the Lord showed her. I am interested in what her main point is.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth, I am not a fan of Beth Moore either. However, please remember that you are a very concrete thinker due to Aspergers. Having given birth to, raised and lived with a person with Aspergers I at least partially understand how you would understand this clip. God made me very differently, as He did many of the rest of the world. I also am a very visual person and tend to see things in "pictures". When I have come to understand portions of scripture, quite often I "see" it, almost as if it were happening in front of me. The stories of the Old Testament, the Life of Christ, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and so forth. When I look at the history of the Church, it is almost exactly as she described: In my mind I get "above" history and look at it like a person would look at a living, moving diarama. I try to see it as God sees it - from the perspective of start to finish and what He is doing in history. (I will never claim that I see it perfectly as He does because I am a sinner and have a sinful view point.) Too often we are so focused on the Now that we forget there was a Past and will be a Future. We are so focused on what is happening immediately around us that we forget stuff in happening in other parts of the world as well. This is basically what I heard her saying about the Church.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I am not a fan of Beth Moore for a variety of reasons, but in this clip, this is what I hear her saying: God gave her an understanding of the Church from a particular point of view (dimension). I did not hear her say she'd gone up to heaven or had had a vision. She simply sat on her back porch and "saw", (you would probably use the word 'understood' instead), something about the Church today. From her tone and since it was the beginning of her talk, I gather it was something positive. From all the traveling we've done to dozens of different churches in dozens of States and in different countries, I have a different picture of the Church in my mind, one that tends much more along what you have been writing about in your recent series. Again, I don't have a clue what she was going to speak about, so this is just an assumption on my part.
I encourage you to remember, tho, that many of us are visual thinkers and it does not automatically mean Satan is putting pictures in our head. God has made each of us differently - some learn and understand visually, some audibly, some hands on. You, my husband, my son, one of my best friends are all very concrete thinkers instead. This is good because God made us this way. However, for those of us who do understand in pictures and "see" more than just the exact word on the page but the implications, background, and so forth almost instantly, it can be quite a challenge. We need each other, especially in the Body of Christ, or God would not have made us this way!
(If you've never read about the different personality types and ways of learning, I encourage you to do so. In the Myers-Briggs way of assessing them, I would say you are a very high J and Beth Moore is a very high P. I also am a very high P. J's and P's tend to drive each other nuts because we are so different in the way we look at and respond to the world. Again, God didn't make all the trees the same, nor cats all the same, and especially not people all the same physically, mentally, spiritually or emotionally. I am so glad!)
Bravo to you, Anonymous! Well said ... and said with 'love!' Blessings, jd<><
DeleteAnonymous, God did not lift her to another dimension to see the church thru His eyes. Concrete thinker or not, the only Person He does this with are the other two Persons of the trinity. In addition, I do not mix psychology to give her an excuse for her blasphemy.
DeleteThank you for posting this.
ReplyDeleteI'm the one who made the video clips you saw at Do Not Be Surprised...
Ken, thank you for making the clips. I appreciate it. Is there a longer clip? I'd like to see what she said afterwards.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, yes the clip is short, and it could be that she said a bunch of things afterwards to take back her saying it was as if she was raised up into Jesus dimension seeing the church as He does. Maybe. But any Christian who says what Beth Moore said, and regularly says in many other venues, constantly, is a person I propose gently you may not want to listen to... If she was planning to share with the class about God's vision for the church as she said she was going to do, then it is better to share from scripture, not a personal vision. That is what I mean by 'extra-biblical". It is a poor choice to insert herself into the discussion of Jesus's vision for His church thru having her own experience than to simply cut herself out of the discussion and point to what Christ has said in in the bible. True Christian teachers preach Christ and Him risen, not their own back porch experiences as the *basis* for telling what Jesus sees for His church.
Anonymous of the Asperger's: There is a difference between thinking visually and saying God raised her up to look over the entire world to see the church as Jesus sees it. Quite a difference. The bible is replete with word pictures and I am grateful for that. He uses metaphors, pictures, and allusions to get the point across. Wonderful. That is not the issue, nor is my Aspie condition, thank you.
What we are called to do is examine what people say and compare it to what the bible says. (Acts 17:11;1 Thess 5:21). That is what I did, plainly and starkly.
It is a problem that Mrs Moore is constantly saying these things. If this was the first and only time she said such a thing, my blog entry would be unfair- though certainly worrisome- but it isn't.
As far as what you heard her saying, we don't have to quibble. I transcribed it word for word. She said that "it was as if I was raised up looking down on a community, as I saw the church ...as Jesus sees it, in a particular dimension."
And one more thing:
ReplyDeleteKen, I have posted 2 series about Mrs Moore on the right, one is a 7 part series outlining what in my opinion is in error with her teaching, and another 5 part series composed of my reactions to attending one of her Living Proof weekend conferences.
To All: I agree the clip is short. Perhaps Mrs Moore began her lesson by saying that on her back porch she had been studying the bible for hours, poring over the scriptures where Jesus outlines the vision for His church, maybe Mt 5-6. Perhaps she then went to sleep and awoke with a picture in her head where her her scriptural studies had solidified. I hope that IS what happened. But it still is not good to say that you felt as you were "raised up" to "another dimension" to see the church "as Jesus sees it". That is puffed up.
Hi Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteI have to be careful in how much video I use in a clip because it comes off the Lifeway SBC site itself and they watch me closely.
All they have to do is complain to You Tube and it would be deleted by You Tube. The reason I put it online is to show she says God gave her a literal vision to see the church as Jesus does.
Then this clip proves God did not give her that vision: http://apprising.org/2011/12/22/beth-moore-gods-vision-for-the-church-includes-the-roman-catholic-church-denomination/
There you'll see her include the Roman Catholic Church as a Christian denomination in her illustration on stage.
No way that would have come from God or the Reformation wasn't of the Lord. Here's my email addy: apprisingministries@gmail.com
I'm going to use your transcription in a piece later and link to your post here. :)
Hi Ken,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the reply. I understand completely. Thank you very much for the link. :) I've transcribed Mrs Moore before and boy howdy, her sentences really run on long ;) Be aware I did not transcribe it completely, only half of what she said is transcribed.
Updated to include full transcription.
ReplyDeleteHi Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteI working on something now. What I'm doing is working Moore back to what her friend James Robison says in the transcription here: http://apprising.org/2011/12/18/james-robison-and-rick-warren-working-to-reverse-the-protestant-reformation/
They deleted the video, but I have a copy and the transcription is right there. Now we know Moore believes this as well. I intend to call her out on it.
Here you go; someone had to say it: http://apprising.org/2011/12/28/sbcs-beth-moore-merely-pretending-to-be-protestant/
ReplyDeleteThank you for the mention. That post is a lot of work. Good job.
ReplyDeletePersonally my opinion is since Mr Graham retired, that Mrs Moore is now Christianity's biggest counterfeit ... and the brethren's biggest threat.
It is all happening very fast now. Rapture won't be long in coming, I don't think.
The Lord be praised.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome. Your post gave me the idea to do mine. :)
Graham was also SBC and sinfully ecumenical from at least 1957 on.
The falling away has sure picked up speed, for sure.
I've also thought there was something very wrong with Beth Moore
ReplyDeleteclaiming she was abused. I think she made this story up. She's also vague and abstract. Also, her giving up a child after so many years just shows she shouldn't be preaching. She has never repented from this, just skates over this as if there's nothing odd about this type of behavior. She has the same look in her eyes as Joel Osteen.
Anonymous,
DeleteIt sounds as though you are uncomfortable with Beth Moore. That's all right. However, I happen to have been an educator for 30 years, and I know that people don't make up abuse stories, and they don't talk about them if they can help it. I don't think she made that up and I don't think it is quite fair to say she did...
If we are to be discerning Christians I urge you, me, all of us to do so on biblical grounds and not because of the look in someone's eye.
What I have found troublesome about Beth Moore is her use of scripture to validate ourselves, use of the bible as a op psychology manual, the improper use of texts to prove personal points (eisegesis), taking scripture out of context, channeling, mystical experiences, and her contemplative prayer- these last three being explicitly unbiblical.
Wow!! I suppose you wouldn't believe most anything in the Bible today either if God worked right in front of your eyes. It's much easier to limit God to your own finite understanding of Him then experience Him and the Holy Spirit's work.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, usually I don't print comments like yours but I want to make a point. I will use your comment to do it.
DeleteI'm glad you read the piece (at least I hope you did). However, if you are a Christian, your first reaction should not be to attack or impugn, or be snide. It should be to seek clarity and understanding from the bible and converse about issues with a right spirit. That is the basis on which we discuss.
Now as to your comment, we do not rely on signs or visions. God is infinite and we are finite, however He gave us His book in which He revealed what He wanted us to know about Him, and gave us the Spirit to illuminate it to our mind. So to that extent, we can understand Him. Even though we are finite.
--Because we have the enduring word and not flimsy visions or fleeting dreams, we know that we can rely on the word, because it is more sure. 2 Peter 1:19.
--We are told not to go beyond anything that is written. 1 Cor 4:6.
--It is dangerous to do so, for the Lord is testing you! Deuteronomy 13:1 -5.
“If a prophet were a dreamer of dreams rises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder and the sign or the wonder comes true concerning which he spoke to you saying let us go after other gods, let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him. And you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him and cling to Him. But that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk so you shall purge the evil from among you.”
Second, it is not a matter of what God CAN do, we all agree He can do anything. It is a matter of what He said He WILL do. And descending from heaven to chat with Beth Moore and give her new revelation is not something He is currently doing. He is currently finished giving revelation. Revelation 22:18
On the other hand, we are told repeatedly that in the last days false teachers will come. They will be like wolves, they are liars and out to destroy, not sparing the flock. False doctrine, false prophets, and false teachers are a repeated theme in the NT. Here is one: 2 Peter 2:1. He says, “But false prophets also rose among the people just as there will also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”
Finally, in *every* case when an OT or a NT person was confronted with the living God, they fell down. Even the disciples at the Mt of Transfiguration who knew Jesus as a man, (Luke 9: 27-36) they were slain in the Spirit and Peter was so stunned he wanted to make a shrine right then. How do I know Beth Moore didn't see Jesus? She didn't fall down.
As for the Holy Spirit's work, do not mistake it. His ministry is to point to Jesus. Always. John 15:26. If the Spirit is pointing to Himself, or worse, to Beth Moore, it is not the Spirit and it is not His work.
Every true Christian "experiences" Jesus and the Spirit every day. We can't help but experience Him. He lives inside of us. That's quite an experience.
Dear Ms Prata:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your kind, gentle tone and sincere desire to adhere to Scripture alone. I almost never comment or reply to things on the Internet, but I am very curious to know how you would answer a question I have. I seek to follow the Lord in truth and utmost obedience. As I pray and seek His will in every step of my life, I am curious to know how we ought to go about doing so in prayer. Obviously, we seek to adhere to obedience to Scripture in all things, but what role does prayer play in seeking the Lord's will? If there are many options for serving Him/many opportunities for work or church service or mission opportunities, and they all fit within His general will laid out in Scipture, how are we to move forward? I believe He has given me specific guidance throughout my life when there were multiple choices that seemed equal to me. Do you believe we should just move forward with any option at that point, or seek Him in prayer until He shows us specifically?
I appreciate your time and thoughts!
Hi RachW,
DeleteThanks so much for your question. I've been thinking about it for a couple of days.
You asked, Do you believe we should just move forward with any option at that point,"
YES
"or seek Him in prayer until He shows us specifically?"
NO
First, you mentioned seeking the Lord's will. His will for us is to give Him glory and enjoy Him forever. To witness for His name, and to live good lives(according to biblical standards) as ambassadors before the pagans. That's it.
What we do when decision making is check the bible.We see if something is prohibited, or if something is prescribed. If neither of those match your situation, then pray. I am making an assumption that the decision-making involves what you said, ministry opportunities or church service.
Here is an essay titled How Can I Be Sure I am Praying According to God's will?
http://www.gotquestions.org/praying-will-of-God.html
Now as far as those specific decisions go, we do pray, but then if all things are equal, make a decision. If it is church service, our obvious gifts should tell us what the right decision is. If it is mission field, the answer will become clear. If it is a decision where all things are equal, decide.
This is where Providence steps in. Not you, I'm sure, but many people think if they make the wrong decision, that our lives in Christ are some kind of house of cards and it will all come tumbling down. Not so. That is what Providence IS- the strength of the sovereign Lord to make things come out the way He wants them.
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for
good, for those who are called according to his purpose" Rom 8:28. Providence is what that verse is about.
If you join a church and know you have a gift for teaching, but the teaching slots are all booked up by people who have taught those classes for a billion years, but suddenly out of the blue one teacher decides to retire? That's providence.
Or if a mission trip is scheduled and all the slots are taken, and you wanted to go, and suddenly someone calls and says "one lady discovered she is pregnant and can't go, do you want to?" That is providence.
Or if you have two equally attractive mission opportunities, Lithuania or Nicaragua, and you decide on Nicaragua, you don't have to worry that the "answer" really was Lithuania. God will work it out! He is not caught by surprise. He already planned your path ahead. He is big enough to do that. He is working out all to the good, including our decisions!
It is good to pray and wait, not to enter into something hastily. The problem with waiting on a specific answer to a specific question though, is that it can devolve quickly. As an example, it can go from choosing between Lithuania or Nicaragua, to which airline to take, to which in-flight meal to choose.
God guides - Psalm 119:33 - us but doesn't send omens. He was merciful to Gideon who fooled around with the fleece, twice! asking for very specific answers to questions. What that story shows is that Gideon's faith was actually very weak.
For example, when I was considering moving away from ME just after I was saved, I chose GA. I don't know why other than it was warm, & the cost of living was lower. He re-knit my life here in such a way that it is 1000 times better than it was. If I had chosen Arizona, I am sure the result would be the same. I didn't wait for a sign or an answer to prayer or listen to a hunch. I simply decided after prayer and some secular research and then left the specifics up to Him. This is what pleases Him. Faith, trust, and perseverance in good decision making with clearly Godly motivations.
Here is Phil Johnson preaching a great sermon in a sermon "Providence IS Remarkable, he addresses the exact things you raise. About decision making, intuition, listening for voices, being obedient, etc. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/0UUVmSDO1SE
Beth Moore false vision- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqUiqdGYit8
ReplyDeleteGlad to see people exposing her false teachings for God's glory.