Saturday, September 17, 2011

Walsch, Young, and Beth Moore: ungodly channelers all (Part 2)

Part 1: Making no distinction between Victorian channeling writers of yore and today's Christian authors
Part 3: Walsch, Young, and Beth Moore: ungodly channelers all (Part 3)
Conclusion: How do Christian authors end up channeling spirits and producing books from them? Pride

In part 1 of the comparison between the Victorian spiritist's automatic writing and today's certain Christian authors receiving 'Divine' revelation by invisible force, I had asked "How is receiving a poem through automatic writing after a seance through a spirit guide any different from holing up in a cabin, having a long conversation with God and writing down by invisible force the 'Christian' doctrines that are then published to today's fervent acclaim?"

I laid the historical groundwork to answer this question, with quotes from famous authors who have received written works from the spirit world through automatic writing. Automatic writing is really modern ghostwriting at its most literal form.

I had said that it is easy to look at WB Yeats and note that having received an entire poem (The Second Coming) in a trance while his hand was being used by an invisible force he ascribes to a spirit guide and say "that's demonic." I had wondered why people do not look more closely at some of today's authors who use the exact same methods and come to the same conclusion, "that's demonic." Here are three popular Christian-ish authors who have revealed in interviews that they use the same method, although it goes by a different name now. We no longer hold a seance, call up a spirit guide, and allow our hand to be used as an automatic pen. These authors are today's Christian mystics engaged in receiving divinely inspired writings in toto after a lengthy bouts of contemplative prayer, usually in seclusion, and are yet said to have a special and close relationship with God because they have done this.

Here are the three authors. I use their examples in order from least Christian to most Christian. Neale Donald Walsch, William P. Young, and Beth Moore.

In 1996 Neale Donald Walsch realized his life was a mess. His relationships weren't working. His health wasn't good. He got fired from his job. He  woke up one night just angry, really frustrated, and wrote down what was on his mind. God answered. He then had successive conversations with God. These chats became nine bestsellers. Walsch denies his books have been channeled into him, but this is how he explained to the NY Times how his books came about:

"In the spring of 1992...an extraordinary phenomenon occurred in my life. God began talking with you. Through me. Let me explain. I was very unhappy during that period, personally, professionally, and emotionally, and my life was feeling like a failure on all levels. As I’d been in the habit for years of writing my thoughts down in letters...I picked up my trusty yellow legal pad and began pouring out my feelings. This time...I decided to write a letter to God. It was a spiteful, passionate letter, full of confusions, contortions, and condemnation. And a pile of angry questions....To my surprise, as I scribbled out the last of my bitter, unanswerable questions and prepared to toss my pen aside, my hand remained poised over the paper, as if held there by some invisible force. Abruptly, the pen began moving on its own. I had no idea what I was about to write....Out came....Do you really want an answer to all these questions, or are you just venting? ... Before I knew it, I had begun a conversation. ... and I was not writing so much as taking dictation. ... Often the answers came faster than I could write, and I found myself scribbling to keep up. When I became confused, or lost the feeling that the words were coming from somewhere else, I put the pen down and walked away from the dialogue until I again felt inspired--sorry, that's the only word which truly fits--to return to the yellow legal pad and start transcribing again."

He was taking dictation, physically being used by an entity from the other side to write about God. Sorry Mr Walsch, that's channeling. It is also called automatic writing. And therefore anything that comes from the session should be looked upon with extreme suspicion and likely should be disregarded out of hand. And yet the series of books, "Conversations With God" was a huge bestseller. Our church folks have no discernment today. Sadly.

In 2008, William P. Young wrote a story for his kids about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that his wife encouraged him to publish. It became the runaway bestseller The Shack.

Though Young is not as specific as Walsch, Moore, Yeats, Kipling or other automatic writers as to the exact mechanism of the automatic writing, he does state that the book was generated by whispers from God, dreams, and written pads of conversations he had with Him. "His book, The Shack was birthed from “conversations” and notes he would occasionally write during his 45 minute commutes to work on a commuter train, or from deep thought. “I had a number of those rather ugly yellow pads full of bits of conversations. Sometimes, I would wake up in the middle of the night in the middle of a conversation and grab a notepad to try and remember,” he says."

Christian apologist Norman Geisler wrote of The Shack's origins by quoting from The Shack's afterword, "In the final section of the book titled “The Story behind THE SHACK,” he reveals that the motivation for this story comes from his own struggle to answer many of the difficult questions of life. He claims that his seminary training just did not provide answers to many of his pressing questions. Then one day in 2005, he felt God whisper in his ear that this year was going to be his year of Jubilee and restoration. Out of that experience he felt lead to write The Shack. According to Young, much of the book was formed around personal conversations he had with God, family, and friends (258-259)." Toward the end of writing the book, Mr Young had said that he spent one weekend writing four chapters, and one chapter, came out whole and he never edited it.

Beth Moore is a Christian teacher and writer who is currently very popular. The most visible of the trio (the trio being Walsch of Conversations with God, Young of The Shack, and Moore) her method of producing her written works are remarkably similar to them both, and also to the writers mentioned in the part 1 of this series, such as Kipling and Yeats who were admitted Spiritists engaging in automatic writing.

Beth Moore, from 'Believing God' said: "What God began to say to me about five years ago, and I’m telling you it sent me on such a trek with Him, that my head is still whirling over it. He began to say to me, ‘I’m gonna tell you something right now, Beth, and boy you write this one down, and you say it as often as I give you utterance to say it: My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief. My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief.’ And He said, ‘Startin’ with you.’” God says, “and boy you write this one down”????? "

She states in the Believing God DVD: “You know what He told me not too long ago? I told you when I first began this whole concept, He first started teaching it to me about five years ago, and He said these words to me: ‘Baby, you have not even begun to believe Me. You haven’t even begun!’ You know what He said just a few days ago? ‘Honey, I just want you to know we’re just beginning.’ Oh, glory! That meant I had begun. Hallelujah! But He was telling me, ‘When this ends, we ain’t done with this. Honey, this is what we do for the rest of your life.’ And He said those words to me over and over again: ‘Believe Me. Believe Me. And I hope it’s starting to ring in your ears, over and over again, Believe Me.’”

In her book "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things, in the preface she states,


Now here is the question. Beth Moore says that she holed up in a cabin by herself, and a written work poured out, emerging complete and not by her own hand, so why DON'T say it is not of Godly origin? How is it different when Kipling says "My Daemon was with me in the Jungle Books, Kim, and both Puck books and good care I took to walk delicately, lest he should withdraw. I know that he did not because when those books were finished they said so themselves..." from what Moore says: "When the message of the book was complete, in His estimation, not my own"?? In both cases, disembodied spirits were telling the authors what to write and when to stop!

How is it any different when Yeats says the writing emerged from an invisible force channeled automatically through his hand, and Moore says that she was 'compelled by God to put ink to paper with a force unparalleled'?? In both cases their physical bodies were used by a disembodied spirit to write things down and in both cases they felt like they could not resist the force!

How is it any different when Catholic Mystic Hildegard of Bingen says "And I spoke and wrote these things not by the invention of my heart or that of any other person, but as by the secret mysteries of God I heard and received them in the heavenly places" and Moore saying "Before God tells me a secret, He knows "up front I’m going to tell it! By and large, that’s our “deal.” (Beth Moore, Praying God’s Word, pgs 1-2). Or when Hildegard said she heard a voice say "write what you see and hear" and Moore saying "He began to say to me, ‘I’m gonna tell you something right now, Beth, and boy you write this one down, and you say it as often as I give you utterance to say it..." In both cases, the women were being directed to write what the spirit said, and both were told by a disembodied spirit that they were recipients of secrets extant of the bible but were doctrinally important just the same!

Yet in all the former cases we dismiss the experience from Yeats, Kipling, and Hildegard, easily detecting that they were of demonic origins. Yet we accept Moore's writings from that same source and by the same method without question. Why? Why is it like this?

"He silences the lips of trusted advisers, and takes away the discernment of elders." (Job 12:20)

"The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land--not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD." (Amos 8:11).

"Calamity upon calamity will come, and rumor upon rumor. They will try to get a vision from the prophet; the teaching of the law by the priest will be lost, as will the counsel of the elders." (Ezekiel 7:26)

Clarke's Commentary explains-- "Then shall they seek a vision - Vision shall perish from the prophet, the law from the priest, and counsel from the ancients. Previously to great national judgments, God restrains the influences of his Spirit. His word is not accompanied with the usual unction; and the wise men of the land, the senators and celebrated statesmen, devise foolish schemes; and thus, in endeavoring to avert it, they hasten on the national ruin. How true is the saying, Quem Deus vult perdere, prius dementat. "Those whom God designs to destroy, he first infatuates."

If you are infatuated with The Shack, stop. If you are infatuated with Beth Moore, quit. I cannot say more strongly that we all need to pray for discernment in these days just prior to national judgment, we need to seek the truth, not automatically generated spirit writings that offer special secrets or additional insight apart from the bible.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment," (Philippians 1:9)

John MacArthur has written over 150 books. He has preached expositionally from the pulpit at Grace Community Church for 43 years. I would say he is an elder of the faith. In a Q&A session at the conclusion of the Truth Matters Conference he was asked: "What is your perspective that the Holy Spirit leads us by nudging us, or whispering to us or leading through dreams, things like that?"

MacArthur: "Well, I think the Holy Spirit does lead us, but there is no way to perceive that that's happening. I don't have a red light that goes on in my head that goes around and around when the Holy Spirit is leading. I don't know when the Holy Spirit is leading or when I'm following my own impulses or my own desires, or whatever. I have no mechanism to know that. But in retrospect I see it, and I categorize that as the Providences of God. ... For example the Friday they brought me a big list of places they want me to speak, and what did I do? Did I go into a trance and say OMMMM or some see if I can induce the Holy Spirit to know what to do? No. I simply looked at the list and thought, I can't do that one, and I couldn't do that one, and oh, that one looks doable. You know what would happen, if I am open and want to do God's will it is amazing how in retrospect that I can look back and say that it was absolutely critical I be there...

"There is no mechanism that we possess that tells us at the moment when the Holy Spirit is leading us in some supernatural way but that in retrospect we can look back and discern by the Providences of God as it unfolded. ... I'm not interested in the mystical stuff. I don't expect the Holy Spirit to give me special impulses or special revelations."

Interviewer Phil Johnson added, "The mistake a lot of Charismatics make is looking for special revelation when God doesn't lead us by giving us new special revelation. He leads us by Providence but He is just as active in leading us."

The mistake that people like Beth Moore and her followers make is that when special revelation is absent, they believe that God is NOT working, that He is NOT leading. So on the one hand we have a preacher of 50 years who says he has no special direct, auditory, or experiential connection to God nor the Holy Spirit that delivers personal direction to him, nor any mechanism that alerts him to when they are working. And when he writes a book he studies, reads, writes, edits, passes it to his circle of editors for revision and goes around again. And on the opposite end of the scale we have Beth Moore breathlessly saying that God "whisked her to Wyoming" where wholly perfect books are delivered through her hand whilst she is having lively conversations in complete sentences with the Spirit.

You choose which is the more likely the truthful Godly experience...and which is not.

35 comments :

  1. Brother or Sister, do you see the ridiculousness of this statement by Walsch? "In the spring of 1992...an extraordinary phenomenon occurred in my life. God began talking with you. Through me. Let me explain."

    "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son" (Hebrews 1:1-2a).

    So God dumped Jesus and is now speaking through Neale Donald Walsch? We should not read the bible any more because He speaks through Walsch now? Um, I don't think so. And yet we praise Beth Moore when she says God is telling her something new so that she can in turn teach us. [insert proper snort of disgust here]

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  2. So G-d dumped the Jews Torah and the Jews prophets and instead spoke through Paul and Jesus? Um, I don't think so.

    Jeremiah 16:19
    O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

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    1. Christians do not think that "God dumped the Torah", but rather that he completed it with the new testament.

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  3. Torah, no that is not what I was saying. I was making was a sarcastic comment aimed at the hubris of a man like Walsch who says that God is speaking to the world through Him, when Hebrews verse says that God spoke to the world through Jesus. It was sarcasm, not my actual belief.

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  4. Hi..I just want to thank you for this blog, I have learned so much from your teaching. In regard to your latest article I hear over and over again in the christian circle the phrase.."God told me" to go here and do this thing, and I agree with you on all points of the article..we live in a society of humanistic psychology and it has infiltrated the church so much..but my question is: obviously the disciples and prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what He led them to say in the Bible..I guess I don't understand the distinction enough to know when a person is channeling an experience with an unclean spirit and when someone has been inspired and led by the Holy Spirit to do, say or write something?
    I don't think you are saying that The Holy Spirit doesn't work that way. In the midst of your busy schedule, which I am so grateful that God is using and giving you spiritual insight and wisdom to rightly divide His Word, I wonder if you could possibly give some insight as to how the Holy Spirit inspires and moves in ones life.

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  5. This is scary and true. What it all comes down to is pride and idolatry.

    Walsh wants me to go to his book to hear what God has to say to ME???? That is blasphemy. For him to say that he has some hidden insight or revelation that is apart from the Bible shows that it is of the occult (not to mention the similarities with automatic writing).

    As far as the Shack goes, it is blasphemy. That is not the God of the Bible; it is a different god. It is idolatry. I don't see how any true Christian can approve of this book. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him, and they will not follow the voice of another.

    I also am really disgusted that Beth Moore wants me to think that my Holy God calls her "baby" with a southern accent. Really, Beth? She needs to be careful too. Idolatry is also creating a "god" in your own image, in a way that you can better relate to. Has she turned God into a southern "girlfriend"? Because God doesn't call us "baby" He calls us "beloved."

    What is also scary is that the Bible is not enough for so many professing Christians. We know that it is true. We should be amazed that God breathed His LIVING TRUTH into the words written by 40 authors that produced 66 books with one, unified message of salvation and redemption. It is a miracle, it is authenticated, it is tested and found true.

    And yet Christians would rather have a fiction book about a different type of God. One that they can relate to, or one who talks in slang. What???? We are going to just forsake the spring of living water and choose broken cisterns?

    Don't we know that all false teachers begin by teaching that they were so special to God that He spoke to them a deeper message??? Even if some don't contradict all the central truths of the faith, should we set ourselves up to follow the fallible words a "super spiritual" human or follow the word of God?

    Now I do believe God speaks to us personally. God can tell us who we are going to marry, what we are going to do, where we are to serve Him. He does it through different ways, and yet so many people can even be led astray thinking God is telling them something, and it isn't God.

    How much better would we be if we stopped saying, "God told me you were going to marry me." And just WAITED to see if He did, or just say, "Wanna get married?"

    I like how John MacArthur says he doesn't need to get some goosebumps to know what to do. What I hear him saying is that he doesn't need to make us think he is super spiritual. He doesn't need us to think that he has something going with God that we don't have. He is saying that what we have with God, each one of us, is more than enough. We have His word, we have the sense that God has given us, we have the opportunity to pursue the things He has set before us, and if we just love God and live our lives we will be fine.

    There is not pride there, and really, he is qualified by years in ministry and knowledge of the word to have a teensy bit of pride (more than the three authors you mentioned), but he doesn't lord it over the people. He is being humble and faithful.

    But the carnal want their ears tickled they want to be entertained, so they will embrace these experiential, mystical, revelators and they will bring on their own destruction.

    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    The time has come.

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  6. Hi Anonymous of 1:15,

    You have a great question. Actually for me, in observing so many revered Christian teachers who DO say "I heard a voice tell me to..." or who describe such intimate supernatural experiences it made me think for a while that I was doing something wrong by having a plain old relationship with Jesus with no bells or whistles.

    I included a three minute clip of how John MacArthur answered your question (and mine), and transcribed some of it in the blog entry. If you click on the link and advance the counter to where there is 12:18 remaining you can listen to him answer your exact question. He spends about 7 or 8 minutes describing how we respond to the Spirit, after having been asked how does the Spirit lead us in life.

    Our pastor gave a sermon on this today as well. He said that we are endowed with talents and abilities and the Spirit enables and empowers us in those talents for what God wants us to do. He also enacts a desire for certain things in our hearts. Say that He wants you to become a missionary in Peru. You already have a gift for connecting with people and a desire for travel, probably. You will be thinking about Peru misions, reading aobut missions, looking at travel stuff to Peru. Then one day you actually go on a mission trip you hooked up with. You loved it! You loved the people and found that once home, you could not stop thinking about the trip and are already wanting to go again... that is how the Spirit works.

    But because of the overemphasis on bells, personal revelations, intimate conversations with Jesus or God, peple think that if they are NOT getting those experiences they are somehow missing the prompts of what the Spirit wants us to do.

    Not so. God is in control, and He puts the desire for the different tasks He has in mind for you into you, and overlays them upon your already existing talents and abilities you are uniquely endowed with. HOWEVER...

    We do have the basic tasks to accomplish as His servants. He will not enact something greater in our lives if we are not staying in the Word, repenting when we do sin, walking with Him closely, tithing, being involved at a church. Luke 17:7-10 is the Parable to ponder here about adhering to the basics.

    But, He doesn't will things for us that he does not make available to us. He won't frustrate Himself nor will He frustrate you :) We can find God's will by simply walking in the Spirit and staying in the Word, because that is where He has revealed it.

    Do check the link of the Q&A I posted, and/or these FMI--

    you can enjoy some sermons here:
    If God's will is so important, how come I can't find it?
    http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermon+Series/8_If-Gods-Will-is-So-Important-Why-Cant-I-Find-it

    Or read some blog entries here

    Introduction to 'Finding God's Will'
    http://www.gty.org/Blog/B101028

    "How Do I Find God’s Will?/What are the dangers of relying on subjective impressions and intuition to determine God’s will?"
    http://www.gty.org/Blog/B101102

    Don't worry about missing what the Spirit is leading you to do, He has it under control and He will make it known to you.

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  7. Thank you for sharing Elizabeth. I too had an experience like Walsh, Young and Moore except I was totally coherent and it was the first time in my life I ever heard the idea that I was going to write a book. Ten years later, I asked God why no book yet. And what I heard was that I had to live through the experience fully before writing it because my understanding would change. I had no idea how much my understanding would change...

    I left the church after a divorce and this is when this happened to me. Validating what you share about it happening to people in low moments of life. I then found myself enmeshed in the new age of spirituality for years yet, the one thing I could not do, was deny Jesus outright. And then, one day, I found myself having a conversation with Jesus after all these years and He said, I never left you, you left me. And I have turned around and see that I may still yet write a book but from a completely different angle. One that reveals the lies of the new age of spirituality. If God wills it to be written.

    The one thing I can say that I notice about 'divinely inspired' writing is Who is being lifted up. It must be God who is lifted up and not the one writing to draw attention upon themselves. I'm not saying we cannot share our road to God, just that it should point to God and not the messenger.

    I appreciate what you are sharing here. Blessings in the name of Christ Jesus.

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  8. I appreciate and agree with what you're saying here about Beth Moore. But....

    Of John MacArthur you say.... "So on the one hand we have a preacher of 50 years who says he has no special direct, auditory, or experiential connection to God nor the Holy Spirit that delivers personal direction to him, nor any mechanism that alerts him to when they are working."

    Well...I don't trust a man who has no direct connection to God or the Holy Spirit that delivers personal direction to him. Ever heard of the Bible? Is that not a direct communication from God to man? But then, John MacArthur said in one of his books that Jesus "never wrote a book". Oh Lord, help us. Jesus is the one whose name is The Word of God, the Word/God made flesh. (Rev 19:13/John 1:14)

    I wouldn't trust any Calvinist (worshiper of the god John Calvin) and especially John MacArthur or Phil Johnson to lead me into truth. There's just nothing quite like having the real thing...the Word of God...to lead me into truth. I'm grateful that a few good men remain faithful to the Word, but there are many more who do not. And we had sure better know how to tell the difference.

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    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlv21zGARM

      What is salvation and repentance in under 2 minutes

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    2. It is to a Paul Washer clip, very good! Thank you Anonymous I really love Rev Washer!

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  9. Hi Jane,

    I apologize. I should take the commas out and the sentence should read

    "So on the one hand we have a preacher of 50 years who says he has no special direct auditory or experiential connection to God" -- emphasis on no special, direct and auditory connection outside of the bible and prayer.

    Of course MacArthur has a connection to God the same as any saved person: prayer, the indwelling Spirit and the bible. The point I was making, and doing poorly I see, is that MacArthur doesn't have visions sent to him or audible voices announcing things or interior whisperings to tell him what to do. Those are auditory and experiential things outside of the bible, and things that Moore claims to have experienced.

    You are incorrect that Calvinists worship "god John Calvin". Johnson and MacArthur worship God. I think you know better than to say that.

    They hold to the Doctrines of Grace which Calvin put forth as an answer to Arminius's doctrines.

    The Five Points of Calvinism (a.k.a. the Doctrines of Grace) are:

    1. Total Depravity – Man is utterly dead in sin. In this state he cannot and will not submit to God or his word
    2. Unconditional Election – In order for man to be saved, God must first elect him to salvation. This election is not conditioned on anything man has done
    3. Limited Atonement – In order for God's justice against man's sin to be satisfied, atonement must be offered. This atonement is limited to those whom God unconditionally elected
    4. Irresistible Grace – Those whom God unconditionally elected and atoned for are irresistibly drawn to him by grace through the working of the Holy Spirit
    5. Perseverance of the Saints – Those whom God has irresistibly drawn by grace will persevere (be preserved) to the end.

    In contrast, Arminius believed that we are only partially depraved, that we choose salvation, that Jesus's blood was shed on the ground for all, including those who would not believe, that we resist God's pull toward grace, and that our salvation can be lost.

    Do you believe what Arminius believed? If you are not a Calvinist chances are you are Arminian. Do you believe salvation can be lost? Calvin didn't and he refuted Arminius's doctrines by outlining them in what is now known as the famous TULIP.

    You can read more about both of them here.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/arminianism.html
    http://www.blogos.org/exploringtheword/doctrines-of-grace.html
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

    You are right, we need to be able to tell the difference in who is false and who is true. The bible shows us and the Spirit enlightens us as we study the word.

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    1. Problem with TULIP is that it was not taught in early Church. Calvinism appeared 1400 or 1500 A.D. ? There are two camps TULIP and the other. We have to die to find out who is accurate.

      Since our eternity is involved...be conservative

      Another look at strange fire

      http://askdrbrown.org/endorsements-for-authentic-fire/

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    2. TULIP is an acronym that stands for:

      Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
      Unconditional Election
      Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
      Irresistible Grace
      Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

      Yes it was taught in the early church, because all 5 of the acronym concepts are in the bible.

      Michael Brown has ZERO credibility after his appearance 5X with Benny Hinn, and Brown's subsequent defense of Hinn. I don't even need to go to your link to understand that.

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  10. Elizabeth,

    What do I do when I have fewer than the 4096 character count but it keeps telling me I have more than that and so it will not post?

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    1. Jane, a lot of times it kind of 'remembers' the 4096 despite the fact that the comment has been edited below that. It dos that to me all the time. Go away from the blog and come back and try again, and see if it doesn't do better. Remember to copy and paste your comment somewhere else, first... :)

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  11. Elizabeth, where I disagree with you.... I cannot abide Calvinist teaching in any way, shape, or form. And I don't compare men with men (Calvin with Arminius). I just compare what men say with what I see God say, then I either agree or disagree with the man depending upon whether he confirms or contradicts the Word (God). So I refuse to be called an "Arminian" (follower of Jacob Arminius) and certainly am not called a 'Calvinist' (follower of John Calvin). Instead, I am called by no other name under heaven but the name of Jesus Christ (a Christian).

    This teaching of Unconditional Election, as you said... "In order for man to be saved, God must first elect him to salvation. This election is not conditioned on anything man has done", is reprehensible to me. If I get any impression at all of the character of God in the Bible, it's that God is a God of Judgment and a Just Judge who judges "as he hears" as Jesus says of himself in John 5:30 ("as I hear I judge"). If one swallows your correct definition of Calvin's 'Unconditional Election', then there is no "real" Judgment of mankind at all, ever, by God. Unconditional Election makes a mockery of the idea that God gives anyone a hearing 'before' decreeing them to an eternal fate of heaven or hell. The very idea of one issuing a judgment without a hearing is plainly abominable, abhorrent, and appalling, not to mention downright unjust. Had I swallowed that devilish doctrine before I married, I would never have had children, believing that any or all of them could well live in eternal hell fire through no choice (free will) of their own. If one believes the Unconditional Election lie, then he must logically believe the other 4 points of the TULIP as well or he is self-contradictory.

    Calvinists are all unable to answer one simple question: "Why" (what reason) did God decree one to heaven and another to hell? Calling this a 'mystery' is the ignorant liar's way of getting others to literally believe a doctrine he cannot support via Scripture....an unrevealed mystery (of John Calvin) indeed. When Jesus tells us in John 3:16-18 that 'belief' or 'unbelief' in the name of the only begotten Son of God are the 'conditions' for salvation and condemnation, Calvinism replaces that truth with the lie that there are 'no conditions' (Unconditional), because God gave no man the freedom to choose for himself, and so he decreed the final outcome before any were ever born (or heard).

    I will go so far as to say that if one believes what Calvin taught in this matter, his soul is in deep trouble, because he has perverted the words of the living and Sovereign God. But I am gracious enough to also believe that God gives us all the choice (free will) to believe whomever we want.

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    1. Once-saved Always-saved (Part 1)
      Once-saved Always-saved (Part 2)
      Once-saved Always-saved (Part 3)
      Once-saved Always-saved (Part 4)
      Once-saved Always-saved (Part 5)
      Interesting scripture verses

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    2. http://www.gospeltruth.net/1843OE/430802_unbelief.htm

      Unbelief..does the Church recognize unbelief at all?

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    3. Proper links 4 once saved always saved

      http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved.php Part 1

      http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved2.php Part 2

      http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved3.php Part 3

      http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved4.php Part 4

      http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved5.php Part 5


      http://faithbibleministriesblog.com/2011/11/21/believing-your-saved-then-finding-out-youre-not/

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  12. Elizabeth, I've read all your blogs on Beth Moore and could not agree with you more. Just guessing, I think Beth's worldly fame has gone to her head. And, I wonder about the women who like her teaching, in the same way I wonder about the followers of cult leaders. They don't seem to know their Bibles well enough to know their teachers are off a little, or a lot.

    I'm skeptical of all teachers who claim they get audible communications from God. I know another Bible teacher who also thinks he hears audible messages from God. He said God audibly fortold his death (he's 96 now) and got some grief from others when that time came and went without his passing. His answer? He just acts all excited and joyful, saying that God changed his mind "because of all the people praying that he wouldn't die at that time". Then he uses the story of Jonah as a Bible example of this sort of thing. When I say this man is an excellent Bible teacher that is an understatement. But I think what goes wrong is that being out of balance (doing nothing, almost literally, besides things that involve their teaching), these people think they have a special relationship with God that the rest of us don't. Their imaginations just go wild. :) I'd say that 99% of what this man teaches is absolutely true as it confirms what the Bible says. But the other 1% disappoints me so much, because it's just simply off the wall. But when his feet are on the ground....his Bible teaching is awesome. Suffice it to say I don't believe anyone who tells me they got an audible message (word?) from God.

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    1. Of course God can talk to us, He created us and the World and can do anything, except lie and of course doesn't sin. He teaches and warns us through His word and in many other ways, through the people he sends to us, even from something we see or hear, it could be on TV, just a straight message for us but of course we must be able to discern that it is from Him. He also talks directly to us. Usually with me I hear Him talk and the letters of the words I even see lit up, because His words are usually few, or maybe that is because I mostly spend time listening to His Word from the Holy Bible. His sheep hear his voice.

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    2. If couyrse God CAN talk to us. But He does not. He CAN make pigs fly, but He does not. It sin't a wuestion of if he can, but of what he promised to do. WHat He said he is doing. Hebrews 1 says in these last days He spoke to us by His Son. Jesus came, taught, died, was resurrected, and is in heaven and His word was recorded in the bible.

      He does not still give revelation. If you are hearing voices it is not Jesus, because He said in Revelation 22:18 that if anyone adds to the book he will receive plagues. He is not still speaking.

      As for 'My sheep hear my voice" isn't literal. If you are literally hearing God's voice, then you are literally a sheep. You cannot interpret it half allegorically and half literally

      FMI: Does God still give revelation? http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/a366/does-god-still-give-revelation

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    3. Sheep hear
      http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45239&forum=35&2

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    4. Yes, sheep hear. We understand the bible. We are led by the Spirit but we do not hear his voice in our heart verbatim with new messages like Moore and others say they do, and we do not have visions or dreams where Jesus is appearing to different people and giving new information they record verbatim and then share with the congregation like it's new revelation.

      The sheep hear by reading the bible and by submitting to the Spirit, who is working all things to the good for those who love Him. This is called Providence.

      FYI:
      How can we recognize the voice of God?
      http://www.gotquestions.org/voice-of-God.html

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  13. First of all, I would like to thank you for taking the time to make us aware of the supposedly Christian works resulting from channelings. I think its important knowledge as such works are likely to lead many astray.

    However, I am wondering if I've missed something in your analysis of Bath Moore's works. I am unfamiliar with any of her works, so I wonder if some of your reasoning for labelling them as channeling are hidden in those works? Otherwise, it would appear that your conclusions come from her claims that God wrote each chapter on her heart over several years, that she wrote some of these works in seclusion and that the Holy Spirit used an unparalleled force in prompting the writing. From this, I can't make the jump to channeling as the source of the works.

    As for how the Holy Spirit chooses to work with us, it really seems like you are building a really small box of accepted communications. I don't think God works through channeling, but I also think the many examples throughout the Bible should be taken as a clue that there is no single set way in which God communicates with us. I think much of what you wrote is valid, but communication from God isn't always as simple as having a silent partner leading us through "Providence."

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    1. Hi ChirsG,

      Thank you for yoru thoughtful question. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear when it came to Beth Moore's process.

      She had written that the process involving one of her books was that she secluded herself in a cabin, and the "Lord" delivered the book to her in toto, and, 'compelled me to ink it on paper with a force of the Holy Spirit' etc.

      That, combined with the numerous times she has said she has had explicit conversations with God and repeats His exact words n whole sentences, the number of times she has said she has heard from God to deliver a 'new teaching', and the fact that she says she has had a vision where He lifted her up above the earth to see the global church (which included Catholics, so we know it's a false vision) to see through HIS eyes a future work He will do, then we conclude that Mrs Moore is led by something other than the Holy Spirit.

      The Holy Spirit does not compel a person, does not deliver a book to a person in toto, and does not use force to move your arm to ink it down. That is no different than the Victorians in seances and Yeats and his daemon.

      You might be interested in Pastor Mike Abendroth's 90-second video summation of Mrs Moore and the issues we're discussing here
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLU1wR3Rzg8

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    2. Thanks for the clarification. In light of this additional information, I would definitely agree with your assessment.

      For me, this has also clarified the difference between the Holy Spirit working through a person and a demonic presence controlling a person. Reading the prophecies in the Bible, although the message of God is clear, I see the personality of the writer as well. I think this is because the writer actually understands the message being conveyed, as opposed to channeling where the mind of the writer is absent in the material being written.

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    3. I forgot to mention this in my earlier reply. I'm out in the woods up in Canada where (shocking as it may seem) there is no such thing as high speed internet. I'd really love to watch some of these recommended youtube clips, unfortunately dial-up and video don't get along too well. :(

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    4. Hi ChrisG, I always feel bad about that. When I moved here 7 years ago I didn't have high speed internet available for the first year. It was dial up. I know that not everyone can watch the youtube clips...I'm so, so, so sorry. I am also sorry that I got out of the habit of transcribing the ones I do put up, or at least summarize. I'll get back to doing that. Thank you humbly for reminding me. :)

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    5. You're welcome for the reminder, but seriously, don't feel too bad about posting videos even if they aren't transcribed. I've read well over a dozen of your blog posts now and you seem to have a talent for getting the point across even without the video backing it up. Not to say I wouldn't appreciate more transcription, but I also realize this is a lot of work as it is and very much appreciate the effort you put in.

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  14. Most of you are going a little overboard here. Many people hear from God. Be care careful or you'll stop the Holy Spirit from working in your life at all. If you ask God a question it's not likely that he will let Satan answer. When you go to God, he's there for you. Read the New Testament again and you'll see many times that God spoke to Christians.

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    1. S.J, Many people are Hindus, but that doesn't mean they're right. I know that many people have claimed to have heard from God. They are wrong.

      here is Mike Horton's explanation as to why: (He is reviewing the book "Jesus Calling" here http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2013/03/05/review-of-jesus-calling/

      "A number of responses have objected to restricting the Spirit’s communication to his Word. We don’t seem to disagree over whether Scripture is the infallible rule, but whether it’s sufficient: that is, whether we need or should expect other avenues of divine communication today. Let me first clarify the point and then defend it briefly.

      It’s not a question of what God can do, but what he’s promised to do. Tomorrow morning, Jesus could speak to me in audible words outside of Scripture, but why to me and not to someone else? Scripture is a public book that may be accessed anytime. Jesus, who rose again publicly in history, certified the Old Testament and commissioned his apostles to speak his words in his name. Preaching is a public event. This public character of the gospel distinguishes Christianity from every other religion. I’ll leave it to others to discern whether Sarah Young tends to treat Scripture and preaching as “humdrum,” given her clear statement in the introduction that she was seeking more communication—something more personal—from Jesus than she had found in reading the Bible. (She doesn’t even mention preaching, as I recall.)

      Now to the defense. To be sure, there are myriad examples of God speaking directly to people in the Old and New Testaments. After all, that’s how we got Scripture in the first place. However, Jesus equated the words of the prophets with the very word of God and submitted himself to the Scriptures (Mt 4:4, 7, 10; 5:17-20; 19:4-6; 26:31, 52-54; Lk 4:16-21; 16:17; 18:31-33; 22:37; 24:25-27, 45-47; Jn 10:35-38). He also drew a qualitative distinction between “word of God” and “the tradition of the elders” (Mt 15:2, 6). The one is God’s infallible word and the other is a fallible interpretation of God’s word. Yet the words of Christ and his apostles in Scripture are also the very word of God for the new covenant era: “God-breathed” and therefore sufficient (2 Tim 3:16). The Old and New Testaments form the biblical canon—like a constitution—that cannot be altered (Dt 4:2; 12:32; Rev 22:18-19).

      Like the era of the prophets, the era of the apostles is unique. Paul distinguishes between the foundation-laying era of the apostles and the ordinary ministers who follow (1 Cor 3:11-12). The scriptures are inspired by the Spirit; we are illumined by the same Spirit to understand them. Just as the prophetic era was followed by the teachers (rabbis) who interpreted their inspired writing, the apostolic era was followed by pastors and teachers. The apostles said and did things that the Spirit did not deem necessary for us to know, as did those who prophesied in the Book of Acts. However, Paul warns, “Do not go beyond what is written,” since appeals to private revelation breed factions (1 Cor 4:6).

      Churches of the Reformation hold that when this Word is faithfully preached, Christ himself speaks. “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17). It is through the preaching of the gospel that the Spirit creates and sustains our faith in Christ (Is 55:10-11; Ezek 37; Acts 2:14-36; Rom 1:16; 2 Cor 4:3, 6; 1 Pet 1:23-25).

      In short, as Luther and Calvin both said, to look for another path, another means of communication from our Lord, is to “seek him outside the way.” The only safe place to find a holy God in mercy, clothed in his gospel, is where he has promised to meet us in peace.
      "

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  15. Interesting blog and actually I believe that we as believers need to exercise discernment. How is it possible for us to know whether a book was 'channeled' by an evil spirit or otherwise? God promises to speak to us by His Spirit in the inner man. I knew from the first page of The Shack that it was spiritually off kilter because my heart knows the voice of the Shepherd. However, you appear to be discounting the fact that God speaks to us today by discounting all writers who claim to be hearing from God as they write. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, sadly. And as a result, you are cutting yourself off from any revelation of the Spirit. Yes, there is nothing new under the sun, but God is able to bring to light hidden treasures from His Word. Why would Paul pray over the Ephesians that they should have a 'spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him'? Yes, have our minds filled with the 'logos' word of God, but we also need the 'rhema'.

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    1. You asked, "How is it possible for us to know whether a book was 'channeled' by an evil spirit or otherwise?"

      When authors tell us they did, like the ones that said so in this article.

      "I knew from the first page of The Shack that it was spiritually off kilter because my heart knows the voice of the Shepherd."

      Your "heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" Jer 17:9.

      You should have known the book was off kilter because it didn't match up with the word.

      "God promises to speak to us by His Spirit in the inner man."

      God spoke to us by His son. Hebrews 1:2. And His son is called the Word and His word is written down to read.

      "you appear to be discounting the fact that God speaks to us today by discounting all writers who claim to be hearing from God as they write."

      I only *appear* to be discounting all writers who claim special revelation from God as they write? My bad. I meant to be ACTUALLY CERTAIN to discount all writers who claim special revelation as they write.

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