In this Back to Basics series, I strive to ask and answer common questions of a more basic nature, rather than do what I normally do, which is to study the nuances of scripture in light of current events. I do the latter because we seem to be very far along on God's timeline in advancing toward the end of the Church Age, and I want bible believing Christians to be aware of the fact of the Church Age's end, and to be aware of their responsibilities in light of this end. However, because we are so close to the end of the Church Age, that means when we are raptured, billions will be left behind, and a few of those will turn to Christian websites looking for answers. These people will not care about the nuances of prophecy, because a great deal of it will have already come to pass and as for the rest, they will need catching up on, FAST. It is these people for whom I write the Back to Basics series.
The rapture is not mentioned explicitly in much of the bible, though it is hinted at throughout, such as this from Isaiah 26:19: "But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead." The most explicit verses are in:
--1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
--1 Corinthians 15:20-23, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
--1 Cor. 15:51-52, “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”
The rapture will be a supernatural event taking place at a date and time no one knows. The 1 Thessalonians verse mentions a trumpet and a shout, but these noises will not be heard by those who are not being called. For these, they will simply be going about their day, perhaps talking directly to a bible-believing Christian, and the believer will simply go 'poof' and disappear.
That is the rapture. What the rapture is NOT is Jesus's Second Coming. In that supernatural event which takes place at the end of the Tribulation (7-year period of judgment on earth), He will physically arrive on earth at the end of the Tribulation to finish the transgression and put an end to sin Himself. In the rapture, Jesus comes to meet us in the air, He does not touch down to earth. He isn't seen by all, only the believers who are dead and alive.
Where did we go? We were called to heaven by Jesus to be sequestered during the coming Tribulation, another supernatural time in which earth dwellers will experience hell on earth as judgment for their sins. (Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 9:24, John 14:3).
Why did we go? We were called by Jesus to the place He has been preparing for us (John 14:3). We get to go there because of our of belief in the Gospel (that Jesus came to earth to live a sinless life, die on the cross as the sacrificial lamb taking the penalty for our sins, and was resurrected on the third day proving He is God). He has rewarded us for this faith by removing us out of harm's way before the judgments on sinners begins. Because the Tribulation time after the rapture is a period of judgment of sins, and our sins were forgiven because we believed on Jesus and Gospel, then it stands to reason we would not be here when the wrath begins. He isn't angry at us. Indeed, we are told told we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The people who were left behind are the ones who refused to believe on Jesus despite all the evidence, and thus remained in their sins, an enemy of God. He will now judge those people and their sins.
You may be surprised by who is left behind. Not all people who went to church, or seemed devout, or had a big position in church such as deacon, or pastor, or bishop, or even pope, are true believers. Actually the bible tells us there will be few real believers. That is because we can only see the outside of a person but Jesus sees the inside. He knows who has truly repented. Many have only made an outward show if it, and that is why they were left behind, They were not really believers in Jesus's eyes.
The rapture marks the end of the Church Age's invisible supernatural and the beginning of the visible supernatural. For millennia, the powers, principalities, and princes of the air (demons and their kingdom Ephesians 2:2, Ephesians 6:12), the good angels (Hebrews 13:2), and also Jesus glorified, remained behind the veil invisible to human eyes. Jesus was in heaven and we were on earth and for the most part, the two remained mingled but invisible- but very active! In one case, the Lord in the Old Testament showed Elisha's servant just how potent and vigorous the activity behind the veil is:
"Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the LORD opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha." (2 Kings 6:15-17).
In the Old Testament there were occasional eruptions of the supernatural, the Flood, miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea, the ten plagues of Egypt, Elijah and the Widow at Zarephath where the wheat never ran out, and other examples. We also see the supernatural in Jesus's ministry on earth for three and a half years and His resurrection, then the Apostles' miracles. After that, for 2000 years the miraculous and the demonic have largely been invisible from human eyes. But make no mistake, just because they have been invisible, it doesn't mean they have not been active. At the rapture, the supernatural becomes visible in the form of millions who have instantly disappeared, likely leaving behind their clothes, their vehicles, their glasses, their teeth filings, etc. The remaining 7 years the supernatural will be visible, and in an horrific way, too.
For example, the coming of the antichrist is in full power of false signs and wonders, (21 Thessalonians 2:9), in Revelation 9 demons are let out of the bottomless pit to plague the people on earth, 144,000 Jews are supernaturally sealed and thus protected during this time so they can continue the work of spreading the Gospel (Revelation 7:3-4), rivers and streams will turn to blood, (Revelation 16:4) the sun will go dark (Matthew 24:29-30)...etc. These supernatural events will be seen by one and all.
If you are reading this and are left behind, wondering what happened, you have made an excellent start by turning to a Christian site. However, do not delay in deciding whether what is written here is true or false. The Lord will send a great delusion upon the whole world, "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).
No one knows exactly what that delusion is, but you can see from the verse that it is bad. "Those who perish' means people who don't believe in Jesus. It is phrased that way because unforgiven sin in a person means they are spiritually dead and destined for hell. Perishing. This delusion will cause a person to be unable to turn to Jesus in belief for salvation. Since it is so complete and final, and since no on knows exactly when God will send this delusion, don't wait! The biggest sign that you could receive is the fact that millions are inexplicably missing!! The best and only explanation that fills the bill are the scriptures that foretell this event's occurrence. What other proof does a person need?
Here are further resources for your study:
GotQuestions.org: What is the rapture of the church?
Bible.org: When Christ comes for His church
Bibles online:
Bible Gateway
Online Parallel Bible
Dictionary of biblical terms. If you want to know what 'salvation; means, or 'repent', or 'sin', go to that link for short explanations.
I wrote this because it seems the rapture may be close. How can I know this if the event is signless and imminent (dependent on nothing else for it to occur?) because the prophesies we know will occur during the Tribulation are nearing readiness for fulfillment. On Friday, Dec 30, 2011, I wrote that "The Prophetic Infrastructure is Almost Complete." In that essay I'd written,
"The infrastructure is being laid. Remember, the Tribulation is only 7 years long. In that time, the global economy is completely changed. The global political structure is completely changed. The temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices ongoing. Old hatreds must be ignited and hot for war. We see that now. Seven years is a short period. In my opinion the infrastructure is being laid now so that when the rapture happens it all will be put together almost instantly."
In his January 1 sermon and prophecy video, Pastor JD Farag said,referring to the Tribulation judgments on the near-horizon and the current prophetic acceleration, "Everything that is happening, is happening swiftly and even simultaneously. And if you think about it, it really has to happen this fast. Because, there is no way that the antichrist would have enough time during the 7-year tribulation to get everything, to set everything in place. It has to already be in place and ready to go by the time he comes on the scene." [min 2:35-3:10 approx)
And later in the video at 13:40,
"I think this is about to come to pass. And if we see this now, at this stage, as we reach the end of the age, and it ultimately finds its fulfillment in the 7-year Tribulation, how close are we?" Luke 21:28 says, after listing the signs and the judgments, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
When these things begin to happen... do not put off deciding on eternity. Jesus is real, He is alive, and He wants to forgive your sins. It is your sin that makes you an enemy of our Holy God.
The website at Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry says "Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. For example: if you lie, you have sinned. Why? Because God has said not to lie (Exodus 20:16). If you do what God has forbidden, then you have sinned. In addition, if you do not do what God has commanded, you sin (James 4:17). Either way, the result is eternal separation from God (Isaiah 59:2). Sin is lawlessness (1 John 1:3) and unrighteousness (1 John 5:17). Sin leads to bondage (Rom. 6:14-20) and death (Rom. 6:23). Paul, in the book of Romans, discusses sin. He shows that everyone, both Jew and Greek, is under sin (Rom. 3:9). He shows that sin is not simply something that is done, but a condition of the heart (Rom. 3:10-12). In Ephesians Paul says that we are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). Yet, "while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly," (Rom. 5:6)."
What do you need to do to get saved, preferably NOW before the rapture happens? Here is an explanation
What do I need to do to get saved?
What is salvation?
The best New Year's resolution you can make is to pray to the Holy Spirit for understanding and conviction of your sins. Conviction just means you consciously know your sins and you feel really bad about them because you know they are crimes against Holy Jesus. Do not delay. Things are happening fast now.
Please feel free to share this essay liberally, and even go to the links I provided because they are better written and sourced. Jesus is the answer. He always has been. Please do not delay so long that you come to understand this after the rapture, or worse, after you die. After the rapture it will be harder to be saved and you likely will die before you're saved anyway, because the second judgment is war everywhere in the world, and the fourth judgment is death to 1/4 of people in the world. And if you wait so long deciding that you die without having repented, your position is fixed eternally. Join us NOW in salvation, and then join us in looking up, for our Redemption draws nigh!
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This post gives me chills. I, too, can feel the nearness of the rapture. May God bless this post by making it available to anyone who is left behind.
ReplyDeleteTo the Anonymous whose comment I didn't publish:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you asking about that. I won't publish the comment because I refuse to re-paste tripe and lies, and that John Darby-Rapture-1830 thing is a lie. It is definitely a lie from the pit of hell.
If the rapture wasn't "discovered" until 1830 or whatever by Darby, then why is it mentioned in Isaiah? Why did Jesus write about it? (John 14:3) Why did Paul explain it?
Further, Darby claims that the pre-tribulation rapture was NOT TAUGHT prior to 1830, which is ridiculous. Here is one example among many"
Increase Mather (1639-1723)
Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.
Other, earlier teachings of it were from
Papias (60-130)
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
Barnabas (100)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
Irenaeus (120-202)
Tertullian (145-220)
Hippolytus (185-236)
Cyprian (200-250)
Lactantius (260-330)
You can read what the above, and many others who came later but before Darby, said of the pre-trib rapture, here
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
If the Darbyites wre right, God contradicted Himself: Dan 9:24 says the Tribulation is to atone for sins, and that sins will be judged... so why would Jesus die on the cross to atone for our sins and said He forgets them(Col 2:13-14) only to have them judged again in the tribulation? Makes no sense.
The rapture IS an "escape", for all those who have come to faith in Jesus and whose sins are forgiven and forgotten and who will *not* be judged for them at the Tribulation.
Why does Paul say to comfort one another with these words? (1 Thess 4:18). Is Paul saying 'be comforted that you will go through the Tribulation?' Where's the comfort in that? Jesus said of that time, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."
so if the Darby-ites are right, Paul was saying, comfort one another that you will go thru the worst time ever in the history of the world and for all eternity?' Makes no sense to the discerning Christian.
But let's look at it from satan's pov. If Paul was teaching the Corinthians and the Thessalonians (and us) about the rapture as a comfort, what would satan want to do? Steal that comfort. Diminish our encouragement. Dampen our resolve. Steal our hope.
The Darby scheme is a scheme of satan, not of God.
i am sorry but that is all JUST REVISIONISM, none of those early church fathers taught a pre trib rapture its just taking them grossly out of context,they were premenllienial but NOT pre trib
DeleteHello Anonymous,
DeleteHere is a partial list of early church fathers who made statements of a pre-tribulation rapture, Papias (60-130); Clement of Rome (90-100); The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150); Ignatius of Antioch (98-117); Barnabas (100); The Didache (100-160); Justin Martyr (110-165); The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138); Irenaeus (120-202); Tertullian (145-220); Hippolytus (185-236); Cyprian (200-250); Lactantius (260-330).
How early do you want to go back? Papias was alive when the Apostle John was.
The pre-tribulation rapture is implicit, not explicit. Nowhere does the bible come out and say "THE RAPTURE WILL OCCUR BEFORE THE TRIBULATION." However, we are promised in several places things that the Tribulation contradicts, IF the church is still on earth. For example, that we will be saved from the wrath, and the wrath begins in Rev 6. We are promised that our sins would be forgotten, and not punished; (Heb 11:12, Col 2:13) and Daniel says the Tribulation is a time of punishment for sin (Dan 9:26). Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His church, and during the Tribulation the gates of hell are given authority to prevail against the saints. (Rev 13:7, Daniel 7:21). So pre-tribulation rapture is the only timing that satisfies the promises of God and doesn't make a conflict. You see? :)
The revisionism is coming from Satan- who wants to steal our joy, make Jesus's promise a NON-encouragement, and cause a division. You notice this was never a real debate within Christianity until the middle of the 1800s, when Darwinism came along, (the world biggest attack on the bible in all of history) then Humanism, then post-modernism. As the Day approaches, the dividing line becomes more evident that we are nearing the moment, yet more people refuse to believe Jesus is not going to drag His bride through the mud. That isn't Godly. God isn't the author of confusion, nor of broken promises. That's from satan. He is the father of lying revisions.
but thise are just taking their quotes out of CONTEXT, I checked! Papias didnt teach the pre trib rapture NONE of those early church father taught a pre trib rapture!
DeleteAnonymous I don't understand how you mean "out of context", nor how you checked *all* of them in 10 minutes. I also need to understand how you refute the promises of Jesus being broken if a post-trib rapture, why Paul said to be encouraged- to go thru the worst time there ever was or shall be, where your verses are that allegedly support anything but pre-trib, and most importantly, why you seem to want to refute the clear verses of the bible so much.
DeleteAnonymous I received your comment with the 4 links. I didn't publish your first comment containing those links and I'm not going to publish this last one either. The doctrines on those websites teach falsely and I won't promote that. Besides, in one of the links, the author proposes the old straw man argument, which is an argument based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. I told you already that the rapture doctrine isn't explicit, but the author proposes that we say it is and then argues that point. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.)
DeleteKind of like your refusal to reconcile the contradictions I've represented to you twice already. Or even any verses that support your position.
Besides, the Darby thing has been debunked a zillion times and frankly I'm tired of it. I think there should be an addendum to Godwin's law- substituting "Darby" for Hitler.
you can peruse the many essays I've presented that instill a confidence in the believer for the pre-trib position, by clicking on the links along the sidebars or do a search in the google box for "pre-trib".
The Lord is gracious and He made promises that He will keep. I hope to see you in the air.
oh and are you saying that God cant protect saints and punish sinners at the SAME time while they were on earth- what happened to omnipotence.....Noah was delivered THROUGH the flood,Daniel was delivered THROUGH the lions den...they werent just taken to paradise, and Elijah and Enoch don't count cause no man before Jesus has ascended to heaven!
DeleteYes He did protect those folks from persecution. Praise Him!! But momentary persecution is not the wrath.
DeleteNo I am not saying He *can't* protect His bride. I am saying that He promised we would not go thru the wrath. Pretty clear. The scripture says in 1 Thess 5:9 that He has not appointed us to wrath.
It all stems back to an understanding of what God is doing on earth that last 7 years, and why. If you go ahead and get a grounding in that, the things I'm sharing will become clearer, I believe.
Anonymous, I've received two more of your comments, and while I thank you for your persistence in sharing a doctrine that you believe strongly in, I think we have both shared all we can share, and neither of us is likely to change another's mind. The argument you make that we are not appointed to wrath means that we will be here on earth during the worst time ever, but none of the wrath will touch us, is ridiculous in the extreme, I'm sorry to be blunt...no scripture even comes close to teaching that. It would be a good idea for you to leave off for a while so we can both absorb what was shared here, and let the Spirit do His work in us both. Thanks again.
DeleteThe Rapture IS PRE TRIB, I know this cause every time I see the other view point my spirit is grieved !!! Nothing about post trib makes any Biblical sense.... You don't punish your children, your protect them!! Praise GOD for that! bm
ReplyDeleteDear Elisabeth,
ReplyDeleteI see that you and Jentezen Franklin have something in common. Both of you believe in 'rapture teaching' based on 1. Cor 15 (that's the one and only main passage used).
How do you explain then the following:
Matthew 24: (NIV translation)
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
I assume we all agree that here Jesus himself is describing His second coming (which is described in much more detail in the book of Revelations). So, dear Elisabeth, I would have a few questions concerning two key verses in Matthew 24:
In verse 22, Jesus (who is speaking here) says that these days will be shortened because of the 'elect'.
In verse 31, the angels come to gather the 'elect'.
Who do you think the 'elect' are?
If the rapture 'theory' is correct then all Christians are already 'gone' at this point. Why will then the time be shortened and angels send out to collect people that will meet Jesus and go to heaven (in other words Christians)?
How do you rule out that the trumpet call described in 1. Cor 15 is not the same trumpet call as in Matthew 24:31.
Because if this is the case, then all the rapture teaching is wrong.
The tribulations is not a judgment for all the unbelievers. Please show me in the book of Revelations where Christians will be collected in any form before the judgment takes place? I think John would have recorded a rapture event, if there would have been one shown to him.
As many other people you are taking messages written by Paul and do not put them in the context of Matthew 24 and the entire book of Revelations.
Hoping that you will post this although I disagree with you on the rapture teaching based on the Bible.
Dear Elisabeth,
ReplyDeleteI now read your response to the one comment. And then the second reply. Are you really 100% sure about what you are saying there? God will never punish? Israel had to suffer sometimes. David was punished. Ananias and Sapphira were judged after Jesus had died on the cross, risen from the dead, and taken His place at the right of His Father (see Acts 5). As far as I understand Acts 5, they were part of the Church. They did not deny Jesus. They lied about their giving, which was enough to be killed by God. This is shocking, but God is God, and we are His creation, so who are we to understand it all.
More specifically concerning the tribulation:
The tribulation is not the final punishment.
The tribulation is a time of testing.
The final punishment will follow the tribulation (see Revelations 14: 14-19 and onward).
The tribulation will lead many people to faith in Jesus Christ, but also people that are Christians then, will have to be very careful not to fall in this time of testing.
I think it is very dangerous to assume (since nobody knows besides the Father) what exactly will happen.
If you convince people that they will not be tested very hard before the coming of Christ then this is dangerous. Jesus Christ deserves a clean, prepared and proven bride. The Church is His bride. How can the Church be clean, ready and proven by Faith and trust in Jesus Christ, if their is no time of testing?
The current Church is not clean, ready, and standing tall in the midst of the unclean world. Compromise, lust, greed, fear and many other things are seriously compromising the current Church. So there is a need for cleaning and testing. What if the tribulation is part of this process?
Furthermore, how do you explain Revelation 11?
Two witnesses will be there. How can this be when all Christians have already been raptured? They do not come down from Heaven, they are on the earth.
These witnesses will do unbelievable things (like Moses and Elijah) and still God will allow that Satan will kill them (see Revelation 11: 7). This does not sound fair, but it is part of the Bible and so I believe it in full. How does this fit into your theory of 'God does not punish His children'. Given that these two saints will 3 1/2 days after their death by risen to life and ascend to Heaven (Revelation 11: 11-12), I would not say that their suffering at the hands of Satan was a punishment from God, but rather part of God's plan to glorify Himself through their lives. Jesus deserves all the glory.
What if God's plan for your life is to live through the time of tribulation (as described in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelations) so that Jesus Christ might be glorified and because of your walk with Christ even more souls can be saved?
Given your knowledge and understanding of the Bible, I am pretty certain that you will be able to walk the walk (in case the things from Revelations will unfold in our live time). But have you thought about the Christians that are not ready. What will happen to believers that are not ready because they run by the motto "I will go to Heaven before anything bad will happen. I do not even need to read the book of Revelations, since this concerns all the things that will happen to the unbelievers that will not repent. I am fine. God forgives me all the compromise. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, and do not need to do anything else, but either die one day and then go to Heaven or meet Jesus in the sky in case He comes back during my life time here on earth."
I think rapture teaching can be very dangerous, since it can give people the false impression of how to approach life, Jesus and the Church.
Alex, I never said God never punishes. I think that any thinking person reading any portion of the bible realizes that Holy God punishes. I said that His wrath is not upon His church age believers. (1 Thess 5:9)
DeleteRegarding what you said about "the Christians who are not ready." There are no Christians who are not ready. There are unbelievers, they are not ready. Christians who have truly believed and are saved by grace are ready, for the only thing He wants from us to enter heaven is faith in the Son. (John 6:40). They are ready.
When Paul explained the rapture teaching in 1 Thess 4:13-18, he ended by telling the believers to "therefore encourage each other with these words". So we understand in that case, it is not a dangerous teaching. It is a truthful teaching. It is a purposeful teaching. It is a biblical teaching. It is in the bible to give hope and encouragement. And yes, it IS designed to tell us how to approach life: with the understanding that Jesus is coming back at any moment. That knowledge alone should make a person approach life in a vastly different fashion tan if one does not believe they could be facing Jesus at any second.
Hi ALex,
ReplyDeletethanks for your question. The rapture is not the second coming. they are two distinct events, each will occur for different purposes.
Here are some good teachings for you-
The catching away of the church
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1323
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html
While Revelation and Matthew 24 include references to the 7-year punishment (as do EVERY other NT book except Philemon)The presentation of the tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble) and the 7-year period of punishment is not just explained in Matthew or Revelation. As a matter of fact it is Daniel 9 we read the purpose for it. Joel speaks of it, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Zechariah, Amos, and Ezekiel, among others.
I refer you to the resources above for a start on learning the great sweep and scope of the plan of God which culminates the Church age at the rapture and begins the last 7 years of this age.
Hi,
Deletecould you please also address my points concerning Revelation 11 and Matthew 24.
I have seen a lot of your responses and you addressed the scriptures. Therefore, I would be very thankful on your feedback on these two key passages that do not support pre-tribulation rapture. Thanks.
How do you explain firm believers (the two witnesses) which perform miracles and wonders in the name of Jesus Christ like Moses and Elijah can be present during the time of tribulation when according to your pre-tribulation rapture believe not a single Christian should be left behind?
Who are the elect described in Matthew 24, when all Christians are already gone?
These are serious points. Because if the witnesses and elect are Christians, where do they come from when a pre-tribulation rapture has taken place (keep in mind no-Christians left behind). If they are new converts, why does neither Jesus (in Matthew 24) or the book of Revelation describes the conversion and repentance of mankind (the book of Revelation rather describes how many people still reject and even hate God)?
I would very much appreciate to read your take on these points, since in my opinion they make the entire pre-tribulation rapture theory collapse.
I hope you start to realise that 1. Cor 15 is very likely to refer to Matthew 24. And if this is the case, then the entire rapture theory is falling apart (sorry to call it like that, but since Jesus Himself did not say anything on rapture before the tribulation and the entire book of Revelation also does not include a pre-tribulation rapture I call it a theory).
By the way, how do you explain that the pre-tribulation rapture is not mentioned at all in the book of Revelations? Isn't it strange that the one and only book that is focused on Heaven, Tribulation, the final judgment, the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the new Jerusalem coming down to Earth (Heaven coming to earth to restore the initial state of creation) is not mentioning an important event like a pre-tribulation rapture? Strange isn't it.
Furthermore, I hope that you realise that you have started contradicting some of your previous statements which argue for pre-tribulation rapture - suddenly God can punish/discipline His people - so why not use the tribulation to purify His bride?
By the way, how do you think God will prepare the Church as a bride for Jesus Christ before He returns?
You have also not addressed this point at all (like you did not touch on Revelation 11 or Matthew 24).
I think we both agree that the Church is not ready. Most Christians are not ready for Christ to come back (at the moment). There is a reason why you try to warn people above wolves and false prophets.
Just assume for a moment that I am right (I do not claim to be right, since only God really knows how this will unfold) and there will be no rapture before the big tribulation (please just consider the possibility), so how will 'Sunday only Christians' do when they have to face tribulation times? Could it be that we, humans, do not want to face the reality that before Jesus can come back, we need to be purified, which means for most of us that we have to go through struggles and testing of our Faith in Jesus Christ.
I am not trying to say that you are wrong and I am right, but let's face it who is on the safer side. The one prepared for the worst or the one that assumes that real hardship and suffering will be reserved for unbelievers. I am not living in fear. I look forward to Jesus returning and many lives being saved. I do not know when He will come back - only God knows. But the one thing I am 100% sure is that we need to be ready when He comes back, and this means to live in pursuit of Jesus Christ irrespective whether when the rapture will take place (I believe that there will be rapture, but I do not agree with you on the timing).
I hope you do not mind my 'fight back'.
Alex, I don't mind your “fight back.” I wish Christians would fight for the true doctrines as hard as you do for the false ones.
DeleteAlex, your narrow adherence to several and only several verses that you believe substantiate your position that Paul’s teaching on the rapture, his reference to it in Isaiah 26:20, and subsequent thousands of generations of believers is wrong, and you are right, is like your holding a Dixie cup of water, believing it is the ocean, and without having seen the real ocean, convinced that everything I tell you about what the vast ocean really looks like is wrong.
I gave you the sermon links for a reason: the scriptures are there. You need a grounding on a more widespread basis, bathed in prayer and seeking wisdom, or none of this will make sense. The rapture is the event that kicks off the culmination of everything God has planned since the Fall of man! The Tribulation is taught throughout the entire bible. I can’t teach you the whole bible.
When you asked ‘How do you explain firm believers (the two witnesses) which perform miracles and wonders in the name of Jesus Christ like Moses and Elijah can be present during the time of tribulation when according to your pre-tribulation rapture believe not a single Christian should be left behind?” shows me that it would be beneficial for you to read more Old Testament books which fill in the glaring blanks of your understanding.
Paul explained the rapture is the moment when Jesus descends part way to collect His Bride, whom Jesus promised will not be appointed to wrath. He will take the living and dead who had been changed into imperishable bodies to heaven while the wrath is poured out. The rapture itself is a sign to many non-believers who have heard about it, who have put off making a decision to repent, or who were in name only. THEY will fill the churches the next day, and they will be the Tribulation believers spoken of in Revelation, martyred for their faith (Rev 5). Just because Jesus takes His children to heaven does not mean none ever come to faith during the Tribulation! They do, multitudes of them. Otherwise why send Two Witnesses? Why super-evangelize and seal 144,000? Why send an angel to fly at mid-heaven and proclaim the everlasting Gospel? (Rev 14). Believers come to faith during the Tribulation.
If you remember how filled churches were after 9/11 you will understand how much MORE filled the churches will be the day after the rapture.
The bible says we will not be appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9) yet if that is true why, according to you, if we're here for the tribulation, we have wrath poured out on us? (Rev 6:16). It would be contradiction only the Rapture explains, and a pre-trib rapture at that.
Jesus told Peter that satan will not prevail against His church (Mt 16:18) but during the Tribulation satan is given authority to prevail against His saints.(Rev 13:7). Another contradiction the pre-trib rapture resolves.
Why did Paul say encourage each other with these words if Jesus said this will be the most horrendous time on earth EVER? Not so encouraging. The pre-trib rapture resolves that.
Alex, the Tribulation is a time that is actually a resumption of Old Testament time of the decree that He paused to take a Gentile people to Himself. He has a specific number in mind and when that is filled, (Romans 11:25) "'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent." (Acts 15:16.) There is more, but I think you have not considered these verses and books and chapters that fill in those blanks.
Your other really long comments that postulate that Paul was wrong and that the rapture, a doctrine understood by Christians since Paul taught it and it was preached ever since, is a pointless exercise to debate with you as long as you have such shallow understanding of the verses you're basing your false position on. I am willing to talk, but first you have to study.
One other thing: Daniel 9:24 explains why God is enacting the time of punishment. He is punishing the world, the nations, and the people for its sin; and for its behavior toward the Jews, and the Jews for their rebellion. Yes, God punishes. The Tribulation IS a time of the most horrendous punishment the world has ever seen nor will ever see again. (Mt 24:21) but to understand all that God is doing you have to understand that this is the Church Age. He is not punishing His bride. The believers that come to faith after the rapture are not in the church age. The Jews that turn to faith are not part of the Church. The Jews that are resurrected to live in the millennium (Ez 41-48) are not he church either. You have to know the distinctions.
DeleteDear Elisabeth,
ReplyDeleteit breaks my heart to read your response.
I have realized that you seriously believe that you are right, so that I must be wrong.
Instead of taking these scriptures at face value (which we are called to do), you trust your and others interpretations.
Once more you were not willing to really dig into the matter (please show me where the pre-tribulation rapture is described in the books of Revelations). And as I expected you justified the elect and witnesses by new converts (which surprisingly are nowhere described in the entire books of Revelations, which is the one and only book that has the entire focus on Heaven and the second coming of Christ).
To be honest, I feel sorry for you, since you believe me (and many others are half-blind), while you are 'knowing it all'. I sincerely hope that the tribulation will not start, while you still have this mind set. Who do you think are among the people that will shake their fists at God? Perhaps Christians that did not expect to have to got through tribulations and are now deeply disappointed with Christ. I wish nobody to be among that crowd.
Based on your strong stand on the rapture thing, and that you are convinced that I must be a Christian with 'shallow understanding', I am pretty sure that you do not take the book of Revelations at face value. One tip - google for Plato and Christianity. Most Christians have been blinded by Plato's teachings many years ago (Augustin was, Luther was, ...), so that we have to take the book of Revelation as a book filled with symbols.
What John saw was 100% real. The Holy City is real. The 24/7 worship is real (which by the way is part of the preparation of the bride - want to learn more: http://www.ihop.org/). The tribulation is real. Everything described in this book is real.
In Revelation 4 we find an amazing description of the 24/7 worship in the throne room of Heaven. Throughout the book of Revelation we find vast details on the end times (which perfectly matches up with Daniel and Matthew for example).
Are you not surprised that in spite of all these details the pre-tribulation rapture is not mentioned at all?
and do not worry that was it from my side, since I have over the years learned when people do not want to listen.
I do not claim to know it all, but your approach 'I know it all' is for sure not the right way to go.
Please do not blame me when you happen to be around when things turn really bad.
I do not beleive that the 144,000 are Jews. they are the "elite" so to say that are raptured and will return with Jesus to judge the earth. The Jews are mentioned as the Bride in the Bible, which many Chrches throughout the world (mostly America) believe that they are the Bride! Replacement theory! Israel and whoever classifies themselves as part of the lost ten tribes are known as the Bride. Jesus is the Bridegroom. But something to note, the 144,000 are not neccesarily Jews, unless I'm Jewish!!-)
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
Delete2. The 144,000 are Jews. "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4).
2. Israel is not the Bride. The Church is the Bride.
Ephesians 5:22-27
2 Corinthians 11:2
Revelation 21:2
3. Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God. Replacement Theology claims that the Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. It claims that instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people. It says that in the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church. Finally, it purports that
The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20) and actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).
http://carm.org/questions-replacement-theology
Understanding thru scripture that the Church is symbolically the Bride of Christ is not replacement theology, it is a proper understanding of who the Church is.
I don't know how I ended up on this site - Glad that I did,the rapture debate - never gets old... I don't understand why some Christians would argue / or want to go through a tribulation period? The church - bride of Christ, understanding the jewish wedding traditions helped me alot with understanding more about the rapture. In another sense, I don't understand a "bride" before her wedding day being beaten by her "husband" before the wedding - then getting married.. haha,, that makes no sense.... I believe Paul said it clearly - when he said that we are to love our wifes as Christ loved the Church - HE DIED for the church - why then would the church have to suffer HIS wrath and go through the tribulation period? Just doesn't make any sense. From the old testament to the new - a pre-tribulation rapture is clearly taught -
ReplyDeletewww.raptureready.com
"Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation".
Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."
Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.
thanks for the comment, Anonymous, and for the link. Blessings.
DeleteI agree with Alex, I too used to believe in pre-trib rapture, mostly in all honesty, because I WANTED to see it that way...strangely enough through my prayers asking for wisdom God showed me I was misunderstanding. Indeed, the pre-trib rapture theory is simply a false doctrine which is held onto more from fear and pride than on the premise of Truth. Keep in mind God has pin-point accuracy and protects those who regard Him as their Lord. Noah, Lot, Daniel, Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego, all persevered in righteousness and were safely delivered. You must believe God is "limited" to believe in a pre-trib rapture. We will see His power and glory in the tribulation and we will glorify Him even more upon seeing these things and His mighty power will be displayed in the midst. God is not the author of confusion and chaos so how would millions of people simply disappearing or evaporating not be chaos and confusion? Name any other instance God did such a weird thing as people just disappeared?...you can't because that's not how the scripture portrays God. The Darby rapture doctrine is simply false doctrine but you won't know this until you let go of the sin of "pride" which is blinding you.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, You say that “God showed you” that the pretrib rapture doctrine is false. What scriptures did He lead you to?
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