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Louie Giglio is a 54 year old pastor of Pastor of Passion City Church in the Atlanta area which he founded in 2008. Prior to that Giglio was a pastor at Andy Stanley's North Point Church for 13 years, itself an emergent-leaning church with a mystical bent. He is Speaker/Founder of the Passion Movement. The Passion Movement is most publicly seen in the large conferences held at the first of each year and is so named after the year. Passion 2013 just concluded this week in Atlanta, Georgia. The Atlanta paper reported that 60,000 youths attended.
Mr Giglio's main ministry began in and continues to be aimed at Christian youth- especially college aged students through young adult.
More than 170,000 people from more than 130 countries watched part of the Passion 2013 conference online. His "Laminin" sermon has attracted over 3 million views on Youtube. If you would like another take on the Giglio laminin sermon, I point you to the essay Laminin and the Cross at the science-oriented website Answers in Genesis, where we are specifically cautioned against looking for signs in the world OR in science via Mr Giglio's laminin doctrine.
This blogger had this to say about the Inadequacies of Evidentialism (i.e. 'Laminin proof'):
So the statistics show us that Pastor Giglio is popular and has influence. The facts show that his most famous sermon is a bit off-center and exaggerated, with a wrong emphasis. With such numbers it behooves us to take a look at what he is preaching to these multitudes of youth, many of whom reside in my own state of Georgia.
The Passion 2013 website says "At the heart of it all, Passion exists to see a generation stake their lives on what matters most. For us, that's the fame of the One who rescues and restores, and the privilege we have to fully leverage our lives by amplifying His name in everything we do."
This is something I have read frequently that Giglio and the people associated with Giglio say. It is that what they do is for the fame of Jesus. On the surface it looks like bringing fame to Jesus is a good thing. But words matter. I say again, words matter. Jesus doesn't need fame. He had fame. (Luke 4:14). Fame is fleeting and fame is fickle. We do not need to bring Him fame.What we bring Jesus is glory.
Puritan Thomas Watson wrote in his sermon, "Man's Chief End is to Glorify God",
To continue, Mr Giglio has gone the way of people who teach, preach and expect to hear divine audible voices directly telling them what to do specifically and in individual circumstances. And not that they can expect this voice just once, but often. At last year's Passion 2012 conference, Mr Giglio said, "How many of you heard the voice of God speak specifically, clearly, directly, and personally, to you? Can you just put a hand up? I’d like you to share it. Can you put a hand up for a minute?" ... "God spoke to me.” Don’t let the voice of the darkness, tell you that you are not worth that God would not speak to you. Don’t let him tell you, you don’t matter. God spoke to you."
He teaches youth that it is normative to hear God, and worse, the flip side of his teaching is that if you do NOT hear God, there is something wrong with you. Apparently Mr Giglio has full confidence in his ability to detect the Voice. At a conference in GA in March 2012, Mr Giglio was interviewed by his friend Andy Stanley. Mr Giglio said, "The upside to planting a church at 50 years old – You care less about what other people think. You have more confidence in your ability to hear from Jesus.”
The ability to hear His voice- through the scripture and no other place- comes from the Holy Spirit. Not ourselves.
That was a short overview. Now to the Passion 2013 conference.
I was struck by the catch-phrases Mr Giglio used throughout his session one teaching. He kept saying God is "the God who does of immeasurably more" and that phrase was a main tenet of the talk. I hesitate to say it was a sermon.
By definition if you have more of something you have to already have had a quantity to measure against. That's how you know you got more. But Mr Giglio never defined what he meant by this term. He didn't define it from scripture or use it in context . (It was from Ephesians 3:20). It was not concrete, it was nebulous. More than what? If I don't get more, am I doing it wrong?
What you find when you listen to scripture twisters, is that they unhitch a verse, or worse, a partial verse, from its context. They then use these well known phrases in their talks so they can sound godly but deny its power. It is a technique that politicians and propagandists use and it is called the tactic of the Glittering Generality.
"Glittering generalities are emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly-valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. Such highly-valued concepts attract general approval and acclaim. Their appeal is to emotions such as love of country and home, and desire for peace, freedom, glory, and honor. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. They are typically used by politicians and propagandists. ... A glittering generality has two qualities- it is vague and it has positive connotations. ... [they] are terms with which people all over the world have powerful associations, and they may have trouble disagreeing with them. However, these words are highly abstract and ambiguous, and meaningful differences exist regarding what they actually mean or should mean in the real world."
George Orwell described such words at length in his essay "Politics and the English Language." He said these words and phrases, "are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object". When used by a preacher unhitching the meaning of the scripture from context, it also unhitches it from pointing to the discoverable object, in this case, Jesus. Orwell continued, " Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different."
When politicians use glittering generalities they do so to appeal to the widest audience possible without causing an offense to as few people as possible. Emergent/Mystical preachers do the same, and in his session one talk, Mr Giglio and his immeasurably more not only was a hit, the phrase is taking on a life of its own on Twitter.
The key is that without precisely dividing the word as preachers are supposed to do, which would include a specific application of the meaning of this phrase from Ephesians in context, we now have thousands of kids running all around believing God will do immeasurably more in their lives, each having a different definition about what that is. Some might believe is it more finances. Others, more health. Others, to stamp out a social ill, still others may hope to receive immeasurably more visions. Politicians and propagandists have made use of the glittering generality for years but now it seems, they must make room for the Southern preacher. I literally lost count of how many times Giglio said it.
In the same session, Mr Giglio discussed his ministry and the impetus for it. It is that millions of young adults "don't have a clue as to why they're on this planet." Again as with any Gnostic doctrine, the emphasis is always shifted away from Jesus toward the human. I would be happier if he had said he had a burden for young people because "they don't know Jesus". But in emphasizing their purposelessness in preparing to solve their problem as to why they are on this planet, scriptures can be done away with in the movement toward works. And make no mistake, works is the mantra of the Passion conferences.
The focus this year as last year is to eradicate the sex trade in the world. The focus these youths had been set toward was not to correctly proclaim the Jesus of the bible but to solve a cultural ill. Three million dollars was called for and the day after the conference closed, over three million dollars was gotten.
Of all the world's ills, child abuse and the sex trade, especially in children, make me fall down in horror. No one more than me would love to eradicate it. I am not saying that trying to do good is bad.
But the reason Christians are on the earth is to proclaim Jesus. Jesus could have eradicated poverty. He could have stopped slavery. He didn't He said "the poor will always be among us." (Matthew 26:11). And apparently Mr Giglio had not read Revelation 18:13, where in the future a healthy slave trade is part of the going economy of the world and is taken down by Jesus Himself. We are not here to solve the world's problems.
The slavery is a symptom. The root cause is our sin. Do they not believe that when the Restrainer is taken out of the way, and sin is allowed to burst through in all its evil, that when the wars of the Tribulation occur, that the parties will be adhering to the Geneva convention? No, every person on the losing side of every war in the Tribulation will become a slave.
The goal today is to preach Christ crucified so that millions can be saved before the judgment comes.
Continuing, in his talk, Mr Giglio did say that he had directly heard from Jesus and that he had received "confirmation" that the conference was to be about solely the person of Jesus Christ, and that he and his wife "wanted to inspire a generation to cash in little dreams and to make the focus of their life's goal to make Jesus known in their generation."
First, any get-together of Christians should solely be about the person of Jesus Christ. One does not need direct revelation from Jesus to tell a person that. I included Mr Giglio's age up above for a reason. If this was a new preacher or a young preacher perhaps these statements could be forgiven as youthful immaturity. But Mr Giglio is 54 years of age and finished bible college 25 years ago. He should already know that the purpose of conferences is to put Jesus at the center. And as for making Jesus known to a generation...that is in the bible too. All he needs to do is cite the verse. (Mark 16:15). But instead Mr Giglio went on for 20 minutes about his personal vision where he got this information. So it ends up being about Giglio, not Jesus- exactly the opposite of what he said he wanted it to be about.
He had said way back at the beginning to open to Ezekiel 37, but there was a long intervening period of time when he talked about himself. When he did preach the valley of dry bones, he allegorized it, as many emergent/Gnostic preachers do. He talked a lot about our "foolishness" and did not use the word sin. (OK, once.) Beth Moore does that when she preaches our 'pits'. Joel Osteen fails completely to make mention that we sin, only infrequently alluding to our "mistakes." See? Words matter. We have three of the nation's most popular preachers choosing not to use the hard word 'sin'. So you see the trajectory.
Substituting the doctrinal words for less loaded ones is a common tactic. Making fuzzy the hard words is a favored tactic because the person wants to please and not divide. It is a way to make hard doctrines sound ticklish to itching ears. (2 Timothy 4:3). Below, Giglio is softening the doctrines and making mush out of the rightly divided word. Giglio continued in his talk--
"Many of us came to the door in captivity. We got to the dome but we came in captivity, we didn't come free and clear. Something has a grip on us. When you trace that back there could be events and circumstances, for sure, but at the end of the day it is because of our foolishness that we forget what God is. And that's what his people did. They were dragged of into captivity into foreign lands. God intervened. He sent a voice."
That makes no sense. Then Giglio read from Ezekiel 36:24-27.
"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules..."
But he stopped short of where God said they shall live in His land. God was speaking of a definite time and place and a promise given to the Israelites. Not the Gentiles. If we are to see the promises given to the Gentiles we turn to the New Testament and it is better preached from there. Many preachers these days allegorize and spiritualize the events in the Old Testament and make incorrect application to the church of today. The verse ends with this, which shows it is not for us but for the Jews--
"You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel."
Far be it for a Emergent/Gnostic preacher to say that we are evil and that God is ashamed of us. When was the last time you heard any preacher of stature preach that?
He resumed his talk by saying, "That's what God does. When God sends a voice, that voice announces that God wants to come, and when God wants to come, God wants to breathe, and when God breathes, He breathes on hard-hearted people, on stone-hearted people, and He takes out of us the hardness and he puts into us beating living life. And that's the Gospel."
That is not the Gospel. Anyone there who heard that would not understand one thing about what Giglio said, because it wasn't scripture. THIS is the Gospel--
“Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
The Gospel according to Giglio is that 'I was foolish so God breathed on me'.
Other perplexing phrases from the opening session at Passion 2013 by Louie Giglio:
--Jesus rocks into the moment and the disciples are all in a wad.
--God was breathing into the vision
--That verse was birthed in us
--It all has to do with the voice. I heard a voice intervening into foolishness.
--Worship is when we give God His breath back
None of that makes any sense. God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33). If the word is being handled rightly, it will always make sense.
In his final prayer, Giglio prayed:
--Do you think your dreams can live? (It is not about my dreams, it is about God's will)
--God believes in you (remember the Gnostic shifts the emphasis from the work of the Shepherd to the worth of the sheep)
--Can your memories be restored? (what does that have to do with anything?)
--Lord, come and speak (Giglio teaches that audible hearing of God's voice is the norm. It isn't)
Other concerning items from Mr Giglio of late outside this year's Passion 2013 are that last year he invited John Piper and Beth Moore to perform and lead the audience at Passion 2012 in the pagan/Mystical practice Lectio Divina. Lectio Divina is a clear attack on the sufficiency of scripture. It is a pagan Roman Catholic practice and is to be avoided. Church Leaders blog covers this concerning event well, and at the end asks some excellent questions to Mr Giglio.
Mr Giglio has been aligning more with Prosperity Gospel preacher Joel Osteen, preaching at Lakewood in May 2012.
In closing, I have a warning and an encouragement. The warning is that any pastor can drift. Any Christian can drift. As any car driver, boat owner, pilot, or farmer knows, one moment of inattention can cause you to get off course. Unless that course is corrected, you wind up over time far from your intended destination. Christian life is a series of immediate course corrections. We do this by repenting, praying, and constantly reading the bible. Attend a local church so that you can be accountable and so you can hear the word of God rightly preached.
But if that course correction is allowed to fester, like a disease, it grows in you. The disease makes the person sicker and sicker. In Christian life, one unconfessed sin, one time we adhered to a false doctrine, can cause others to immediately come in. Satan wants to capture you into a snare, and false teaching is the way to do it. If Mr Giglio began well, he is not finishing well. He is drifting.
Undiscerning Christians tend to take take snapshots and stop there. If they find that their one time investigative results into a particular preacher or teacher was doctrinally sound, they take a mental snapshot and stay with that assessment forever. But the Christian should be armed with a sounding line. That is the line which sailors of old threw out constantly to see how deep the bottom was. When the depth got too shallow, they sounded the alarm and changed direction. Without throwing out the sounding line, they would run aground and maybe sink. But constant vigilance allowed them to always know how deep they were in it, and whether they were navigating safe waters.
Christians need to be like that. If they ever only threw out the line once they would not have an up-to-date data on how deep or shallow the waters were of someone's preaching. Mr Giglio needs to take the measure of the shallow waters he is navigating. He needs to get back deeply into the word. The encouraging thing is that he, and any person who follows teachings of his or like his, will be forgiven if they repent. Jesus told the church at Pergamum who were holding to a false teaching to repent (Revelation 2:15-16.) To the church at Thyatyra Jesus told them He gave much time to repent of their false prophesying. (Revelation 2:21). To the church at Ephesus who forsook their first love, He called out to them to repent. (Revelation 2:5). That is how Good Jesus is. But with each church in need of repentance there also came a warning of judgment if they failed to set aside their undoctrinal ways. That is how holy Jesus is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Part 1: Jesus Culture and Kim Walker-Smith
Part 3: Conclusion
Mr Giglio's main ministry began in and continues to be aimed at Christian youth- especially college aged students through young adult.
More than 170,000 people from more than 130 countries watched part of the Passion 2013 conference online. His "Laminin" sermon has attracted over 3 million views on Youtube. If you would like another take on the Giglio laminin sermon, I point you to the essay Laminin and the Cross at the science-oriented website Answers in Genesis, where we are specifically cautioned against looking for signs in the world OR in science via Mr Giglio's laminin doctrine.
This blogger had this to say about the Inadequacies of Evidentialism (i.e. 'Laminin proof'):
And though I would imagine his ministry has been a blessing to many folks over the years, he is one of those type of speakers who will sensationalize Christian "evidences," like the laminin molecule, in order to make God appear to be really cool and neat-o. But this misappropriation of Christian evidence has some hidden dangers that will undo your credibility as a messenger for God.I agree.
First, it capitulates to the culture, particularly the teen culture who already think being a Christian is "squaresville." Though there is good intentions with the attempt to show that believing in Jesus doesn't make a person an "L7," what happens when smug and surly Devon goes home after one of these Giglio conferences where he opines on the shape of the laminin molecule, does an internet search only to discover that Giglio exaggerated his proof? All that shows is Christians can lie.
Secondly, the illustration merely trivializes the Gospel. Honestly, does the laminin molecule have to look like a cross in order for God to be a perfect creator? How does a cross shaped molecule help God out exactly? How does it make God more real? Isn't the fact that there is a complex, self-replicating molecule to begin with proof enough for God's hand in all of life?
So the statistics show us that Pastor Giglio is popular and has influence. The facts show that his most famous sermon is a bit off-center and exaggerated, with a wrong emphasis. With such numbers it behooves us to take a look at what he is preaching to these multitudes of youth, many of whom reside in my own state of Georgia.
The Passion 2013 website says "At the heart of it all, Passion exists to see a generation stake their lives on what matters most. For us, that's the fame of the One who rescues and restores, and the privilege we have to fully leverage our lives by amplifying His name in everything we do."
This is something I have read frequently that Giglio and the people associated with Giglio say. It is that what they do is for the fame of Jesus. On the surface it looks like bringing fame to Jesus is a good thing. But words matter. I say again, words matter. Jesus doesn't need fame. He had fame. (Luke 4:14). Fame is fleeting and fame is fickle. We do not need to bring Him fame.What we bring Jesus is glory.
Puritan Thomas Watson wrote in his sermon, "Man's Chief End is to Glorify God",
The glorifying of God, 1 Pet. 4:11. "That God in all things may be glorified." The glory of God is a silver thread which must run through all our actions. l Cor. 10:31. "Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." Everything works to some end in things natural and artificial; now, man being a rational creature, must propose some end to himself, and that should be, that he may lift up God in the world. He had better lose his life than the end of his living. The great truth asserted is that the end of every man's living should be to glorify God. Glorifying God has respect to all the persons in the Trinity; it respects God the Father who gave us life; God the Son, who lost his life for us; and God the Holy Ghost, who produces a new life in us; we must bring glory to the whole Trinity.Jesus does not need us to bring Him fame.
To continue, Mr Giglio has gone the way of people who teach, preach and expect to hear divine audible voices directly telling them what to do specifically and in individual circumstances. And not that they can expect this voice just once, but often. At last year's Passion 2012 conference, Mr Giglio said, "How many of you heard the voice of God speak specifically, clearly, directly, and personally, to you? Can you just put a hand up? I’d like you to share it. Can you put a hand up for a minute?" ... "God spoke to me.” Don’t let the voice of the darkness, tell you that you are not worth that God would not speak to you. Don’t let him tell you, you don’t matter. God spoke to you."
He teaches youth that it is normative to hear God, and worse, the flip side of his teaching is that if you do NOT hear God, there is something wrong with you. Apparently Mr Giglio has full confidence in his ability to detect the Voice. At a conference in GA in March 2012, Mr Giglio was interviewed by his friend Andy Stanley. Mr Giglio said, "The upside to planting a church at 50 years old – You care less about what other people think. You have more confidence in your ability to hear from Jesus.”
The ability to hear His voice- through the scripture and no other place- comes from the Holy Spirit. Not ourselves.
That was a short overview. Now to the Passion 2013 conference.
I was struck by the catch-phrases Mr Giglio used throughout his session one teaching. He kept saying God is "the God who does of immeasurably more" and that phrase was a main tenet of the talk. I hesitate to say it was a sermon.
By definition if you have more of something you have to already have had a quantity to measure against. That's how you know you got more. But Mr Giglio never defined what he meant by this term. He didn't define it from scripture or use it in context . (It was from Ephesians 3:20). It was not concrete, it was nebulous. More than what? If I don't get more, am I doing it wrong?
What you find when you listen to scripture twisters, is that they unhitch a verse, or worse, a partial verse, from its context. They then use these well known phrases in their talks so they can sound godly but deny its power. It is a technique that politicians and propagandists use and it is called the tactic of the Glittering Generality.
"Glittering generalities are emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly-valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. Such highly-valued concepts attract general approval and acclaim. Their appeal is to emotions such as love of country and home, and desire for peace, freedom, glory, and honor. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. They are typically used by politicians and propagandists. ... A glittering generality has two qualities- it is vague and it has positive connotations. ... [they] are terms with which people all over the world have powerful associations, and they may have trouble disagreeing with them. However, these words are highly abstract and ambiguous, and meaningful differences exist regarding what they actually mean or should mean in the real world."
George Orwell described such words at length in his essay "Politics and the English Language." He said these words and phrases, "are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object". When used by a preacher unhitching the meaning of the scripture from context, it also unhitches it from pointing to the discoverable object, in this case, Jesus. Orwell continued, " Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different."
When politicians use glittering generalities they do so to appeal to the widest audience possible without causing an offense to as few people as possible. Emergent/Mystical preachers do the same, and in his session one talk, Mr Giglio and his immeasurably more not only was a hit, the phrase is taking on a life of its own on Twitter.
In the same session, Mr Giglio discussed his ministry and the impetus for it. It is that millions of young adults "don't have a clue as to why they're on this planet." Again as with any Gnostic doctrine, the emphasis is always shifted away from Jesus toward the human. I would be happier if he had said he had a burden for young people because "they don't know Jesus". But in emphasizing their purposelessness in preparing to solve their problem as to why they are on this planet, scriptures can be done away with in the movement toward works. And make no mistake, works is the mantra of the Passion conferences.
The focus this year as last year is to eradicate the sex trade in the world. The focus these youths had been set toward was not to correctly proclaim the Jesus of the bible but to solve a cultural ill. Three million dollars was called for and the day after the conference closed, over three million dollars was gotten.
Of all the world's ills, child abuse and the sex trade, especially in children, make me fall down in horror. No one more than me would love to eradicate it. I am not saying that trying to do good is bad.
But the reason Christians are on the earth is to proclaim Jesus. Jesus could have eradicated poverty. He could have stopped slavery. He didn't He said "the poor will always be among us." (Matthew 26:11). And apparently Mr Giglio had not read Revelation 18:13, where in the future a healthy slave trade is part of the going economy of the world and is taken down by Jesus Himself. We are not here to solve the world's problems.
The slavery is a symptom. The root cause is our sin. Do they not believe that when the Restrainer is taken out of the way, and sin is allowed to burst through in all its evil, that when the wars of the Tribulation occur, that the parties will be adhering to the Geneva convention? No, every person on the losing side of every war in the Tribulation will become a slave.
The goal today is to preach Christ crucified so that millions can be saved before the judgment comes.
Continuing, in his talk, Mr Giglio did say that he had directly heard from Jesus and that he had received "confirmation" that the conference was to be about solely the person of Jesus Christ, and that he and his wife "wanted to inspire a generation to cash in little dreams and to make the focus of their life's goal to make Jesus known in their generation."
First, any get-together of Christians should solely be about the person of Jesus Christ. One does not need direct revelation from Jesus to tell a person that. I included Mr Giglio's age up above for a reason. If this was a new preacher or a young preacher perhaps these statements could be forgiven as youthful immaturity. But Mr Giglio is 54 years of age and finished bible college 25 years ago. He should already know that the purpose of conferences is to put Jesus at the center. And as for making Jesus known to a generation...that is in the bible too. All he needs to do is cite the verse. (Mark 16:15). But instead Mr Giglio went on for 20 minutes about his personal vision where he got this information. So it ends up being about Giglio, not Jesus- exactly the opposite of what he said he wanted it to be about.
He had said way back at the beginning to open to Ezekiel 37, but there was a long intervening period of time when he talked about himself. When he did preach the valley of dry bones, he allegorized it, as many emergent/Gnostic preachers do. He talked a lot about our "foolishness" and did not use the word sin. (OK, once.) Beth Moore does that when she preaches our 'pits'. Joel Osteen fails completely to make mention that we sin, only infrequently alluding to our "mistakes." See? Words matter. We have three of the nation's most popular preachers choosing not to use the hard word 'sin'. So you see the trajectory.
Substituting the doctrinal words for less loaded ones is a common tactic. Making fuzzy the hard words is a favored tactic because the person wants to please and not divide. It is a way to make hard doctrines sound ticklish to itching ears. (2 Timothy 4:3). Below, Giglio is softening the doctrines and making mush out of the rightly divided word. Giglio continued in his talk--
"Many of us came to the door in captivity. We got to the dome but we came in captivity, we didn't come free and clear. Something has a grip on us. When you trace that back there could be events and circumstances, for sure, but at the end of the day it is because of our foolishness that we forget what God is. And that's what his people did. They were dragged of into captivity into foreign lands. God intervened. He sent a voice."
That makes no sense. Then Giglio read from Ezekiel 36:24-27.
"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules..."
But he stopped short of where God said they shall live in His land. God was speaking of a definite time and place and a promise given to the Israelites. Not the Gentiles. If we are to see the promises given to the Gentiles we turn to the New Testament and it is better preached from there. Many preachers these days allegorize and spiritualize the events in the Old Testament and make incorrect application to the church of today. The verse ends with this, which shows it is not for us but for the Jews--
"You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel."
Far be it for a Emergent/Gnostic preacher to say that we are evil and that God is ashamed of us. When was the last time you heard any preacher of stature preach that?
He resumed his talk by saying, "That's what God does. When God sends a voice, that voice announces that God wants to come, and when God wants to come, God wants to breathe, and when God breathes, He breathes on hard-hearted people, on stone-hearted people, and He takes out of us the hardness and he puts into us beating living life. And that's the Gospel."
That is not the Gospel. Anyone there who heard that would not understand one thing about what Giglio said, because it wasn't scripture. THIS is the Gospel--
“Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
The Gospel according to Giglio is that 'I was foolish so God breathed on me'.
Other perplexing phrases from the opening session at Passion 2013 by Louie Giglio:
--Jesus rocks into the moment and the disciples are all in a wad.
--God was breathing into the vision
--That verse was birthed in us
--It all has to do with the voice. I heard a voice intervening into foolishness.
--Worship is when we give God His breath back
None of that makes any sense. God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33). If the word is being handled rightly, it will always make sense.
In his final prayer, Giglio prayed:
--Do you think your dreams can live? (It is not about my dreams, it is about God's will)
--God believes in you (remember the Gnostic shifts the emphasis from the work of the Shepherd to the worth of the sheep)
--Can your memories be restored? (what does that have to do with anything?)
--Lord, come and speak (Giglio teaches that audible hearing of God's voice is the norm. It isn't)
Other concerning items from Mr Giglio of late outside this year's Passion 2013 are that last year he invited John Piper and Beth Moore to perform and lead the audience at Passion 2012 in the pagan/Mystical practice Lectio Divina. Lectio Divina is a clear attack on the sufficiency of scripture. It is a pagan Roman Catholic practice and is to be avoided. Church Leaders blog covers this concerning event well, and at the end asks some excellent questions to Mr Giglio.
Mr Giglio has been aligning more with Prosperity Gospel preacher Joel Osteen, preaching at Lakewood in May 2012.
In closing, I have a warning and an encouragement. The warning is that any pastor can drift. Any Christian can drift. As any car driver, boat owner, pilot, or farmer knows, one moment of inattention can cause you to get off course. Unless that course is corrected, you wind up over time far from your intended destination. Christian life is a series of immediate course corrections. We do this by repenting, praying, and constantly reading the bible. Attend a local church so that you can be accountable and so you can hear the word of God rightly preached.
But if that course correction is allowed to fester, like a disease, it grows in you. The disease makes the person sicker and sicker. In Christian life, one unconfessed sin, one time we adhered to a false doctrine, can cause others to immediately come in. Satan wants to capture you into a snare, and false teaching is the way to do it. If Mr Giglio began well, he is not finishing well. He is drifting.
Undiscerning Christians tend to take take snapshots and stop there. If they find that their one time investigative results into a particular preacher or teacher was doctrinally sound, they take a mental snapshot and stay with that assessment forever. But the Christian should be armed with a sounding line. That is the line which sailors of old threw out constantly to see how deep the bottom was. When the depth got too shallow, they sounded the alarm and changed direction. Without throwing out the sounding line, they would run aground and maybe sink. But constant vigilance allowed them to always know how deep they were in it, and whether they were navigating safe waters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Part 1: Jesus Culture and Kim Walker-Smith
Part 3: Conclusion
I was a follower of 722 and Northpoint under Louie Giglio for about 5 or 6 years after I graduated college in 2001. It is painstaking for me to watch what has been done to the movement and this emerging modern church. Christians, Brothers And Sisters....we've got BIG problems, and I mean BIG. I am not going to judge because that's Gods business, but when you have an audience of 60,000 college age kids and your concerned about sex slave trade over the Gospel...I'd look out. I've known Louie and his wife Shelley, and Chris Tomlin from their first days at Northpoint, and quite frankly I'm disturbed as a Christian since I was five, that this is not what people need, they need to hear the Gospel, and they missed the boat completely. Your experience with God is your Day of Salvation, that's when you get to say God rescued me from my sin, and I want to live my life in testimony of that. When I began listening to Louie and saying wow, I want the experience he was having or feeling, I knew something was wrong. Why should he be called to receive this deep connection that I don't get and I'm a Christian. Is it because I'm bad, or I sinned one more time than he did, and God just didn't feel fit to reveal himself to me. Louie is a great guy, I knew his mom before she passed away, and frankly I'm really concerned that the movement that Passion or One Day started out as, has gone into a direction that is going to lead these young folks straight to the gates of hell with out the Gospel being heard. Sad. You can preach the scriptures which are infallible Words inspired by God, but you can't judge. It's a tough quandary to be in, and I had some friends that I knew attended this event. I can't even say what I want to say about all of this...so I'm in a quagmire myself. The only answer to this is nothing short of prayer, that will lead them to repent, and heed the true voice of God which is the Gospel!!!
ReplyDeleteI was at Passion 2013 and the Word that was preached made sense to me. At the end of the day I felt I need to over come my fear of sharing my faith and share my faith with none believers. God works through all of us differently
DeleteI loved your line, "Your experience with God is your Day of Salvation". What a great foundational thought.
DeleteIt is so hard when you know people who are falling by the wayside, isn't it?!
Yes, you can judge. ""Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." NAS. "Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly." NLT
This blog series looked beneath the surface, and behind the lights and the music, to make a good judgment. You can too.
Anonymous, the message Piper gave, I understand (I didn't hear it) was sound. However he did fail in his duty to rebuke the falsity that occurred prior. If you heard Piper's, apparently the message made sense. The messages I hear prior to Piper's make no sense. It depends on which message you heard. I simply point you to Giglio's statement "That's the Gospel"
Delete"That's what God does. When God sends a voice, that voice announces that God wants to come, and when God wants to come, God wants to breathe, and when God breathes, He breathes on hard-hearted people, on stone-hearted people, and He takes out of us the hardness and he puts into us beating living life. And that's the Gospel."
That is not the Gospel. Anyone there who heard that would not understand one thing about what Giglio said, because it wasn't scripture. THIS is the Gospel and compare to the bible's explanation of the Gospel--
“Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
God works through BELIEVERS differently. But His message stays the same.
I don't know if you noticed but every story they gave of rescuing people out of the slave trade was that they came to know Christ. We show Christ by our love and our love can't condone what's happening to 27 million people in the world.
DeleteUh, you might want to look into that "fame" thing a bit closer - try Isaiah 26:8, which is where the phrase comes from....your fame and renown are the desire of our hearts. In all of your alleged expert homework about Giglio et al, can't believe you missed that. Also, if you think passion was only about human trafficking and NOT about the Gospel, you don't know what you are talking about. It was all about Jesus, and pretty in your face at that. The human trafficking component was similar to the mission or cause that's a part of your typical summer youth camp. Sure it was done on a large scale and an amazing result, but it was really a small part of a bigger, more important focus of the conference. Lastly....what's up with you anyway? Nothing better to do than run down other Christians? I could see a jaded non-believer having some sort of beef out of sheer ignorance. Never ceases to amaze me when alleged believers dump on other believers. Find a hobby, use your time to, oh I don't know, maybe tell a non-believer about God, volunteer at a homeless shelter, help with crafts at VBS, something. Just hoping your audience is small. God's fame probably doesn't get spread much from this approach (yeah, I know....God doesn't need to be famous...tell that to the billions who don't know him yet).
ReplyDeleteHello Anonymous:
DeleteRE the word "fame"- the point is that Gnostic preachers change words from the loaded, powerful ones like sin, glory, to less loaded ones. The result is that the message is diluted. That was my point. Isaiah 26:8KJV reads "Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee." Even the New Living translation says LORD, we show our trust in you by obeying your laws; our heart's desire is to glorify your name...and the Hebrew for fame in your version is simply "name." It is about His name.Not His fame.
RE The "gospel" being presented: I printed word for word the section where Giglio thought he was preaching the gospel and finished by saying "That's the Gospel". What he presented was NOT the Gospel. You might want to compare the verse I shared which tells us what the Gospel is against what Giglio said. I encourage you to do that.
RE: "Jesus in your face"- my point was, WHICH Jesus. I know Jesus was in your face. There was a 40 food lit-up sign. But the Jesus that was shared at the conference was a different Jesus.
RE: sex trafficking. I do not think the conference was only about trafficking. It was about the insufficiency of the bible, and works in place of the Gospel. The mechanism used to make the evil substitute was the works of trafficking.
RE fame vs glory- If the billions who don't know Him yet learn about The false Jesus taught at the conference, they will never know Him. He might become famous in their eyes, but He won't have the glory of a redeemed people to bring home. Fame is earthly. Glory is eternal.
I too attended the conference this year. One thing you are missing, and that you don't see if you don't attend the conference, are the community group meetings. In those community group meetings we are given different passages of Scripture to go over together. The real gospel of Jesus is shared in those community groups, just like in the main sessions. I can agree with you that I don't agree with everything that was said by every speaker during the conference, but there are countless things I would agree with and can confirm in Scriptures. You can find flaws in every human, and every church. So I wish you would pray for the truths that this conference teaches to be made known instead of pointing out all the flaws of man.
ReplyDeleteAt this conference we were taught that it is by faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved. It is His ultimate sacrifice that brings us grace and forgiveness of our sins. If that isn't the gospel, I don't know what is.
I don't ever recall anyone saying that you aren't saved if you didn't hear something from God. I also don't remember anyone saying that it had to be specifically an audible voice from God. A lot of the times Louie says that, I believe he is talking about the passages that he shares and reads. One of the main ways we can hear God is from His word, and the Word was being shared all throughout that conference. So if their hearts weren't hardened, then most likely everyone heard something from God.
I believe that things like this Passion Conference is just what this generation needs. After hearing so many things about judgement and condemnation for our sins, we need some leaders to teach about the grace of God and the love of God. Look at John 3:17. Jesus didn't come to condemn us, but to save us, and it is because of God's love that we are saved, not by our "righteousness". Yes, we should still try to be righteous by following the laws Jesus laid out for us. Also, being saved doesn't give us an excuse to sin, and I believe this conference taught these biblical principles.
And when talking about fame, our president is "famous". That's how he got voted into presidency. So in turn we should make Jesus famous so that others may know Him for the loving, grace-giving Lord and Master of all that He is. That way more people will follow Him, and more glory can be given to the Father.
So please don't cling to the negative opinions you have of this conference and these leaders. Pray that the message of the gospel is planted and grows in everyone who attends, and that they will seek God for themselves and read His Scriptures for themselves. Pray also that the Spirit guides them to know what is true.
I feel as if I could right a blog entry as long as yours rebuking a lot of things that you are "warning" against, but you seem to be pretty set in your beliefs. All I'm trying to say is that I believe the Passion conference does well to bring others to Christ and give glory to God, and that is all we live for.
Dear one, when you say, "I believe that things like this Passion Conference is just what this generation needs" i want to gently tell you that EVERY generation needs Christ. I heard much hoopla about "this generation" from the speakers and I read on all the websites, but your generation is no different and nothing special than any generation that came before. That is the deadly result of the false gospel of of Passion. Humans are all the same, sinners in need of the savior. We do not need to tailor that message to a particular generation because knowledge of the true Christ and His message transcends all generations.
DeleteIf the community groups share the same Gospel as was shared in the main sessions, it doesn't matter if it was a small group or a large one or a medium one. False is false.
To anonymous: for a correct interpretation of John3:14, I recommend you listen to Pastor Jim McClarty go thru the Book of John over at salvationbygrace.org. It is true exegetical teaching, line by line.
DeleteHope this helps.
Pam
Yes, I totally agree that every person needs Christ, and everyone is offered grace through faith in Christ. But I don’t think a generation of people aged 50-75 would appreciate the contemporary style of the Passion conference, which is why I stated that this generation (18-30 year-olds) needs a conference like Passion. It helps inspire young adults who are trying to decide what to do for the rest of their lives: desire to grow closer to Jesus, study the Scriptures, make disciples, and follow God’s will. That’s what these conferences are geared toward.
DeleteAnd at the conference they said that this generation (18-30 or so) specifically is the one who needs to stand up, because the generations before haven't done much to end human trafficking. They have been living blinded by consumerism, the sex industry, and every day luxuries. If we make this young generation aware now, to not live that way, then they are less likely to fall in the same trap of allowing these horrific things continue. History has proved it easier to teach a younger generation new things (like how to fight human trafficking) than an older one, because people get so set in their ways as they age. Also, if the older generations see the younger stepping up for a good cause, maybe they will be inspired to step up and make a difference as well. The speakers weren't trying to single out this generation and say they are the best, they just might have felt it may be more effective. "If a bunch of broke college kids can raise that much money for this cause, what more could others do?"
As far as you claiming that the gospel being shared at Passion is “false” I’m not sure what you believe the gospel is. I already stated above what I believe the gospel is, and how we are saved only through faith in Jesus. I actually attended the conference and didn’t see them sharing any other gospel. You can quote Louie all you want on what he said the gospel was, I still don’t see any false teaching on what he said about God breathing on us. It was simply an analogy of saying that we were dead to sin, but God gave us breath to make us alive in Christ. And when Louie said we are to give God’s breath back, I understood it as another form of tithe. We give a portion of this breath while worshiping with our voices. That breath is not ours because God gives us every breath that we take. God does not need us to give that breath back, because God doesn’t need anything. But because God gives us breath, He deserves our worship, which is giving Him His breath back. That’s what I understood Louie to mean, and many who went to the conference that I know thought the same thing.
If you want to bash the Passion conference for helping enable thousands of Christians come together and worship God and give Him all the glory, and for giving thousands a common goal to work toward as a community for good, then go ahead. I’m not sure what you are trying to accomplish. There will be more conferences, and we will continue to believe in Christ, worship God, make disciples, and try to show love to others like Christ would.
P.S. I meant to be signed in when I first commented, so sorry for the anonymous post earlier.
Ben: I don’t know why you’re not sure what I believe the Gospel is. I posted the verse that explains the Gospel up above. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
DeleteAs to the generations that came before not doing much about the sex trafficking issue, I do not agree with you that nothing much has been done before. That is one of the errors of the Conference, indicating that you’re a special generation. I posted another blog entry about the sex trade focus of Passion2013. There is a reason we don’t focus in general as large mass groups on cultural problems. More here http://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2013/01/do-passion-2013-members-know-who-real.html
or here
http://www.macarthurcommentaries.com/#
As far as you’re “not sure what you are trying to accomplish” it is to warn you that you have been exposed to false teachers and false doctrines.
Hi I just got back from Passion 2013. I would tread lightly on this matter as it has encouraged & helped me have a passion for serving Jesus in my life.
ReplyDeleteBefore I came to passion and knew of it i was a lukewarm christian and didn't know about things like slavery and other things that they even existed.
Jesus calls us to be a light to the world and a light to those who are in needy also.
At the heart & soul of Passion is Jesus. Even Louie Giglio stated such in one of the sessions.
I know Louie has some different beliefs sometimes than what would be considered fundamental or mainstream beliefs but his heart & mind is set on serving the Kingdom of God and the small differences in my opinion aren't enough to merit for it to not be the Gospel or something like that.
Louie clearly knows what the Gospel is and he clearly stated such that God came in human form in the person of Jesus Christ and died for us on the Cross taking on the sins of mankind and those who trust & repent put their faith in Him will be saved
Louie did not clearly state the Goospel. I quoted what he stated and I quoted the bible. Read it for yourself and compare. Anything that varies from the bible is false.
DeleteYou said, "Louie has some different beliefs sometimes than what would be considered fundamental or mainstream beliefs but his heart & mind is set on serving the Kingdom of God and the small differences in my opinion aren't enough to merit for it to not be the Gospel or something like that."
Different beliefs are NO BELIEF. Paul said,
"For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough" (2 Cor 11:4)
this tells us 2 things- first that people preach different gospels, different Jesuses and accept a different spirit, and that's Passion 2013. And second, people put up with them readily. That's YOU.
I am not going to 'tread lightly', because of what Paul said:
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8)
I put it to you that general zeal and youthful exuberance do not a believer make. Mormons have passion for their god. Mormons claim Jesus. Muslims have passion for their god. Muslims claim Jesus. Passion without knowing the real Jesus will lead them to hell. (Matthew 7:23-24)
http://www.politico.com/politico44/2013/01/obama-chooses-inauguration-speakers-153611.html
ReplyDeleteLG will be delivering the benediction for Barack Obama....
Anonymous, so very interesting. Thank you for the information and the link.
DeleteThe Hill reported, "Giglio is considered one of the highest-profile evangelical Christian pastors. He has been prominent in efforts to end human trafficking, according to CNN."
Last time it was Rick Warren who was chosen, and Warron prayed in the name of Isa, a Muslim false Jesus. I will be wondering what Giglio will say and pray, and if he prays in the name of Jesus. I hope so.
Yes, Elizabeth, as Leon stated, be encouraged! And Leon's analogy to the counterfeit bill is right on! I used to read all the major "Christian" publications (Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer and such), and two years ago was completely flustered by some Jehovah's Witness that came knocking (did not have any further contact with them, by the way). I realized that I did not truly know what scripture said, got rid of all the extra religious books in the house, and devoted myself solely to scripture. Did not even go to church so as to not be influenced by scripture twisting there! Did not read any "christian" websites! Have just gotten around in the past two months to going back to church and to researching all the new stuff that has come out so that I can be aware and discern what is scripturally sound or not. Imagine my shock to see all that is abounding in "church"! Be encouraged and continue pronouncing the truth!
ReplyDeleteI attended the Passion 2013 conference and was slightly skeptical walking into the event. As an Atlanta native, I never thought that the passion conferences were worth the hype. But, I actually attended this year and was able to hear the word preached in many different styles through many different speakers. Passion is definitely a ministry concerned with strengthening believers who already have a basic knowledge of the Gospel. It seeks to grow our faiths and to make us be able to discern truth for ourselves. However, I think that the majority of the articles that have been written by people who did not actually attend Passion. There is a lot that people don't see unless you attend the conference. The Ezekiel talk and the 'immeasurably more' were both unpacked in Community Groups (a smaller group that allows for discussion and the unpacking of the talks).
ReplyDeleteAll this to say, I think taken out of context, these are issues that are very concerning. But, those at the conference heard a more clear message.
One needs to remember that our senses are very prone to being tickled as well. Take away the lights, the stage, the man-made atmosphere and there's not much left. I've personally witnessed many "annointings" not work because there was no music or background noise. Very interesting what can and does happen when our senses are getting blasted along w/strong(twisted) words! Just keep a close eye on the New Apostolic Reformation and it's "apostles". The list is growing and so are these conferences aimed at the youth. The agenda is clear to those who hold God's Word above subjective experiences. Bless you Elizabeth, your points are concise and earnestly sound off the Truth.
ReplyDeleteTo the youth reading, read your Bibles!! Don't let one of these "new thing" teachers define what scripture means, get on your knees and ask The King to reveal them with blessing your study of His Word! Don't settle for a quick fix interpretation, read in context. When God's Word goes out to other tongues in other countries they either accept what they read or they don't. By His power, not ours. Remember His Words, not their's. His Will be done, not ours, corporately or individually.
Paul said, a preacher's fruit shows his heart, whether he is false or not. What the passion movement is doing, worshipping through justice is exactly what God said he wanted through the prophets (Micah 6:8, Amos 5:21-24) They're not the only ones of course, but they've got the lime light at the moment, so it's easy to criticize them. Well people are getting to know Jesus and loving him practically so I don't see how the fruit is bad. I find it sad when we as the church are more committed to criticizing each other, than spurring them on, even if they're doing something different. I don't just listen to preaching, I also read the bible and God has used both to impact my life. If all you're doing is criticizing others' teachings, you're no different from the pharisees. And I'd rather support a group focused ond spreading the gospel and simultaneously freeing people, than a group hell-bent on dragging other people down.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you said that thru Passion people are "getting to know Jesus." ReallY WHich Jesus? John 4:24 says God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” CLarke's commentary explains, "This God can be pleased only with that which resembles himself: therefore he must hate sin and sinfulness; and can delight in those only who are made partakers of his own Divine nature."
DeleteIf people at Passion are worshiping justice, worshiping through false visions, worshiping an incomplete Gospel, they are not worshiping. If that 'drags you down', sorry, better now than later. I am committed to true doctrine, as commanded in the bible. Remember the warning by Jesus in Rev 2, the church at Thyatira was tolerating a false prophet. Jesus was against this. He didn't just speak against the false prophet, he spoke against the church that knew it was false and accepted it. Therefore, I refuse to "spur on" falsity, it is a deadly combination you're advocating, tolerance of falsity and refusal to speak up when detected.
Elizabeth Prata,
ReplyDeleteMy, My, My, very pharisaical of you to swing a sword that isn't yours to swing. I found several "false" spins on your message as well. Perhaps, you should get your doctrine from Alistair Begg, Michael Ramsden, Ravi Zacharias and R.C. Sproul, all are as Theologically and doctrinally sound as they get and all fundamentally supported most tenets of the Passion Conferences Agenda.
Unknown,
DeleteIs there something with which you disagreed in the actual essay? Simply calling someone a pharisee for biblically showing how a conference may be dangerous to your doctrinal health isn't the most helpful of responses when having a conversation and attempting to come to a greater understanding of each other's positions....nor is a vague allusion to a "false" spin, scare quotes and all, very helpful either, without specifics.
I agree that Sproul, Begg and Zacharias are doctrinally solid men (unfamiliar with Ramsden). Can you explain more specifically about what you meant when you mentioned them in reference to the Passion conference?
Elizabeth: check out Ravi at Passion 2016. https://youtu.be/JUaY0AOLopU
DeleteHi Anonymous,
DeleteOK, I'm 7 minutes into his speech, there has been lengthy thanks, 3 jokes, 2 anecdotes and 1 poetic recitation. No scripture yet. What am I looking for and do I have to listen to all 49 minutes to get there?
The directive to give aid to widows and orphans is documented well in many passages of the Bible. God gave Israel instruction in the Law to be responsible toward widows and orphans. One example, "Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17. Father God gives insight to Himself in Deuteronomy 10:17-18, "For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing." The covering for orphans and widows immediately follows the explanation of who God is in that passage. That indicates there is importance in widows and orphans.
ReplyDeleteThe value and protection of widows and orphans should be very simple to grasp, understand and acknowledge. However, it wasn't. Widows and orphans were often times taken advantage of or ignored completely. Instructions are given again. Isaiah 1:17, "Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."
The nature of mankind has changed little since God gave Israel the Law. It has possibly become more corrupt and self-centered. Widows and orphans are still a big issue. The struggles faced in everyday life can be extreme emotional, financial and physical loads to bare. Recorded in the New Testament, the church is again told in James 1:27, "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world".
Clearly, God has not changed His view on orphans and widows. The early Christian church did a work and distributed food daily to Jewish widows. This is accounted for in Acts 6:1-6. Later, Paul instructed Timothy in his epistle to tell the Ephesus church the widow's immediate family was responsible for the care. 1 Timothy 5:3-8, "Honor widows who are widows indeed; but if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God. Now she who is a widow indeed and who has been left alone, has fixed her hope on God and continues in entreaties and prayers night and day. But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives. Prescribe these things as well, so that they may be above reproach. But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
Thanks for the reply. I agree that providing for widows and orphans is a biblical thing to do. There are a few issues however.
Delete--We are not to provide social justice at the expense of biblical truth, which Passion does
--We are not to substitute social justice for doctrinal purity, which Passion teaches
--We are not to seek experiences above the word, which Passion promotes.
There is an additional issue with the emphasis on seeking to stop sex trafficking that Passion emphasizes, and that is the bible never commands us to engage in a social transformation. I accede here to Jesse Johnson at The Cripplegate who will explain this better than I could. Respnding to tragedy by giving money should be thought of twice before giving.
Responding to tragedy by giving money part 1
How can I possibly apply those verses in times of tragedy? It is practically the American Way to donate to the Red Cross or other aide organizations. But is that what Jesus had in mind?
In the New Testament, when there were physical or practical needs in the church, they were met through the church. When there were poor in the congregation, the elders organized a system to care for their needs (Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim 5;9). Believers obeyed Jesus’ command and sold their excess goods to care for one another, but they didn’t give the money to outside groups; they gave it to the church, through the church.
The early church met the physical needs of other believers by giving their money to their church (they literally laid it at the Apostle’s feet), and then they allowed the elders to identify the must urgent needs to meet. And when there was famine or desperate poverty in distant lands, the strategy stayed the same. Believers pooled their money and gave it to their churches, who in turn passed it along to churches in need (Rom 15:25-26; 1 Cor 16:1-3).
from part 2
http://thecripplegate.com/the-call-to-minister-to-the-poor/#more-10201
"I do believe that those commands refer to the poor in the church (in your own local church first, and then in other global churches second). The New Testament does not mandate cultural renewal or social transformation, and the church never has as its goal the eradication of poverty in the world. But believers are called to minister to the poor in their midst, and to meet the needs of believers world wide. Obedience to these commands is one of the most basic ways that God’s glory is revealed through the church."
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so is throwing thousands of dollars to a social organization for the purpose of stopping sex trafficking the best way to spend money? Or even the right way for the church to seek to do this? No. How about applying that same amount of money to support missionaries to go to the afflicted areas, and then a *spiritual* transformation can then ensue? better.
Passions' emphasis on social transformation at the expense of raising up doctrinally solid men and women is a poor substitute and unbiblical. I encourage you to read the two parts about social transformation and sending money at the above mentioned site.
That is a serious declaration!! That passage was written to Christians and it applies to everyone! It is morally wrong to leave our children and our wives unequipped with no provisions. It is morally wrong to leave widows and orphans in the care of government programs, creditors, or the church as a primary financial, food, health and emotional provider. Yes, Christian believers, as well as non Christians, can have issues providing for their own. Issues should not develop into neglect. The church is given instruction to care for the "widows indeed" as in 1 Timothy 5:9-16. These are women who are believers and active in a church body. This is a minimum of service. It leaves one to question the fate of the remainder of widows. Plainly stated, this does help ease the "burden" on the church but it does not ease the burden on other widows and orphans suffering who are not active Christian believers. What about them? Assistance to widows and orphans is a means of worship to God by loving one's "neighbor" as one's self.
ReplyDeleteThe parable of the good Samaritan in Luke 10:29-37 illustrates this very well. A man is stripped, robbed and beaten half to death and left lying in a road by robbers. A priest noticed the man but moved to the opposite side of the road, ignored the man's need, and passed by. A Levite reacted exactly like the priest and ignored this need. The Samaritan instead had compassion and took care of the injured man with personal actions, personal sacrifice, personal finances, setup short term services and established a completion plan. The Samaritan helped his "neighbor" by his actions.
In 2 Kings 4:1-7, a woman, newly widowed with fear of losing her sons to creditors for her debts due, seeks advice from the profit, Elisha. Israel had just completed a bloody war against the King of Moab and this woman's husband died. Elisha was a Godly man and gave this woman instructions to borrow empty vessels, as many as she could get, and to use her only possession of value, a jar of oil, and fill these empty jars from it at home behind the closed doors. The woman followed the advice and was given further instructions from Elisha to then sell the jars of oil, pay off her debts and she and her sons could live on the rest of the profits. Here a widow sought instruction, a Godly man gave it, she followed the instructions, God blessed the outcome. Notice it was done by faith behind "closed doors". It was not a big spotlight news event giving the widow or Elisha headlines or glory to be seen by others in the area. Elisha helped his "neighbor" by instructions.
Perception is reality and my perception of what you were saying is that as Christians we were to take a laissez faire approach to charity and service to the downtrodden. That approach may work for American Free Market Economics but as Christians I feel it is dangerous Theology to interpret scripture as proof of adopting that attitude. Martin Luther King Jr. said it best when he coined, “Not only will we have to repent for the sins of bad people; but we also will have to repent for the appalling silence of good people.” I for one as a Christian want not to be silent about that most vitriolic evil. I certainly will not give the enemy credit by suggesting something he manufacturers as "culture" as you did by suggesting human sex trafficking is just a "cultural ill".
"Perception is reality and my perception of what you were saying is that as Christians we were to take a laissez faire approach to charity and service to the downtrodden."
DeleteI'm sorry you have that perception. Charity is a must. The method of disbursement is the issue. Also the issue is the fact that adults are banned, youths are brainwashed, the Gospel is lite, and the emotions and supernatural experiences are primary. The problems with Passion Conference is not just about giving, but the sex trafficking emphasis AKA social justice is a wayward slide from the doctrinal truth that we are not to engage in it as a means to an end. Ultimately, Passion is about anti-intellectualism- and works.
I wish I could agree with you, as I also look greatly for false teachers. After having worked with young adults, most live there lives never knowing the gospel and never have a real relationship with God. They come board and know less about the bible and think because they show up to church they will get there check mark to heaven. They think they are intellectually superior to the bible and God's teaching. The Young Adult pastor himself and his son believe that God has to be able to lie in order to truly be God. They believe in letting people teach the word of God even if they openly claim the bible is not completely true and believe its written by men thus there must be fallacy. They treat the bible and God as an intellectual after thought to be discussed and reasoned to fit there own intellectual beliefs. If you know the scripture it is a reason to reject people and call them over zealous. I have watched pastors dumb down the scripture and teach falsely. We have failed to disciple people in the truth of God's word. So I actually hear a man teaching fall in love with Christ, he came to save you, and deliver you from sin. Not because to check of some list but because the Creator loves the people who he created. There is no one bigger than this God. Jesus used allegory quite a bit. In several of his other videos he does talk about sin and it making us dead and Jesus came to save us. Now that your saved what are you going to do with that salvation? Sit and hide? No we go and share that gospel in all of its full Glory. We have so many people sitting in churches expecting someone else to share the Gospel. To teach to do the homework for them. To be honest, most churches today are filled with self seeking glory mongers. They sit around and congratulate themselves for putting in an hour to help the poor and needy, all the while building up a tecno church to feel relevant to today's society and letting the real Gospel slip into oblivion. They take no part in society, in sharing the gospel, being responsible, like voting, or using the God given freedoms of America to share and help other people. This man is saying its not about us its about God. We can't save ourselves, but we know that our God does and will. Its not about who we think we are its about God and living like we believe what we read in the Bible.
DeleteIn today society we do not even live out what we say we believe. They pick on certain words and leave at.
Yes words matter. I am against the emergent church. It is nice to hear a man say Choose God instead of sin, choose life instead being spiritually dead. God is want of a relationship with you because he created you. He wants to heal, save. He is right in saying, God gets all the credit and Glory not us. He deserves our praise and not lip service. Love the Lord God with all your might and Strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
We can show God's love when we exercise the fruits of the spirit with our loved ones and our neighbors.
Sorry not sure of the address..but they will know we are Christians by our love. The church should reflect "behold how they love one another" I don't hear that preached to often either. Usually some name it and claim it gospel if I am a christian that God will give me everything I desire, because I am His servant.
Jesus says my sheep hear my voice..., so is Jesus a liar. Yes I know the that scripture in context. Most people hear God's voice by reading the scripture. Not an audible voice. I think the point was, if your not hearing from God, its probably because your not picking up your bible and praying.
It is true that the younger generations do not have discernment, but after all, they have been indoctrinated into a steady diet of lies and misinformation since they went to elementary school. Sadly, this continued in "youth" groups at church where young pastors came out of liberal-teaching colleges and slowly started to twist the gospel and God's definition of love. God is the only one who can deliver true "justice." He never asked us (believers) to work towards ending culture's social ills and the reason is that we are just as evil at heart as those who perpetrate the injustices. Sinners trying to stop sin is like a rock trying to stop a waterfall from cascading over it. When we lift people out of their circumstances (end the sex trade) we've effectively become the "savior" to those who needed saving, leaving no room for the "real" savior. In my experience in working with women in prison, women overcoming addictions, etc. the best I can do for them is to share God's truth because quite frankly, their circumstances may never change. They may always be in prison. They may always be in poverty. They may always struggle with an addiction of some sort, but I trust God that when I share His truth with them, that His words will take root. I have complete faith in Him that His will, will be done. The other scary part of churches promoting this type of cause (ending _________ fill in the blank) is that it is a step towards humanism which is more concerned with ending social inequality, than everyone's need for a "true" savior (Jesus). Social justice is also something that our government promotes as it wants to equalize the distribution of money to all. When churches start aligning with a government agenda, it is a huge red flag -IMO.
ReplyDeleteLady, you keep stating that what passion is teaching is false... um hello. they are teaching the gospel but most of the in depth biblical scripture readings and discussions were behind the scenes during the small group times. The speakers were just there to give a simplified deconstructed version of the gospel so it might be easier to understand and apply to the lives of college aged students. And you can continue to say that it is false to teach like that but when scripture is just thrown out to me (an 19 year old myself) it can be confusing, difficult to understand and hard to keep up... the speakers know that. They just give a basic understanding of what the gospel is and then you go talk about it and read the actual scriptures in small group where you can discuss, move at a slower pace, and understand more fully what the gospel is.
ReplyDeleteAnd the whole thing about social justice... what is wrong with you? Jesus is love and being a loving person is helping your neighbors in need. It means trying to bring the gospel to all people and thats what the movement to end sex trafficking is all about. Helping our suffering brothers and sisters. Could you imagine someone you love being sold into slavery that is happing right now all over the US and you could have done something to prevent that... maybe, possibly... even if the movement didnt make much of a dent in ending slavery it still might have helped your love one. And you can say well it was God's will and say things like that wouldn't matter or whatever you say in response to this. But I cannot image that happening to one of loved ones and would do anything to end such injustice from happening to other people. And to me that is a part of loving your neighbor.
Sir Or Madam,
DeleteYou said that the preachers at the conference "give a simplified deconstructed version of the gospel so it might be easier to understand". Then this is no Gospel.
Did man in his finite and sinful mind, decide to EDIT God's message? Yes. So they Give the Gospel and preach Jesus but it is not the SAME Gospel (Gal 1:6)and it is not the SAME Jesus (Acts 1:11). Therefore it is not profitable and actually Paul said in Gal 1:8-9 that anyone who does this is cursed.
As for social justice, it is pointless. The way that people are turned from selling humans is by giving them the Gospel. Jesus could have stamped out every disease and every social ill in the land. But did He? No. he said that the poor shall always be among us but the Kingdom has now come. We are not heartless about the socially or financially disadvantaged, nor are we callous to the vulnerable who are victims. However, the choice is, you can send good money after bad by donating to man's organizations to fruitlessly try to stamp out sins on this world, or you can donate to missions and get the transformative Gospel into their hearts. The Gospel is the only thing that will change a heart or a community.
Most social justice advocates erroneously use the Matthew verse 'love your neighbor' to justify their concept of social action. And it is true that we are to help the poor. But if you took 4 million dollars (as an example) donated to some person's method of stamping out sex trafficking and instead gave that same 4 million to missions, look at how much more, and eternally, we love our neighbor. Only five years after the missionaries came to the Papua New Guinea cannibals, there were the first 35 converts. Now, within 1 generation much of the region is Christian, missions continue, a second and a third generation is coming up in His Way, and translated bibles are being delivered. And cannibalism is gone. THEY truly "loved their neighbor."
It's useful to hear about the false doctrine this man teaches, but when I read a lot of these websites there seems to be an underlying view that we are supposed to "rate" teachers by how correct their doctrine is. Just to point out, it doesn't work that way. We don't measure a teacher by his doctrine, we measure him by his spirit. This man is clearly not of the Spirit of God, which is how we know whom our brothers are. It wouldn't matter if this man's teaching was 100% correct, that wouldn't change the fact that he is demonic and evil. Conversely, if we see a man who clearly has the Holy Spirit, and his teaching is erroneous in some way, that does not count against him, it simply means he is mistaken, we can all make mistakes (though if God is with us we shouldn't be making many). Kingdom membership is not based on how good your doctrine is, it's based on whether or not you have been truly born again of God and saved from the world.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you could not be more wrong.
ReplyDeleteOf COURSE we rate them on their doctrine. If a man is saved and teaches with sound doctrine, He is of the spirit. That is HOW we tell they are of the Spirit. 1 Tim 1:10 says that anyone who is contrary to sound doctrine is not of the faith. Acts 17:11 says to compare the teaching to scripture to see if it is so, not to compare the teacher's spirit with...whatever. Doctrine is the barometer.
Titus 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3 -For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
2 Timothy 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:3 - As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine
Doctrine is the outward expression of understanding the word, something only someone of the Spirit can do. You can't see their spirit, but you can compare their words to the bible.