Thursday, July 18, 2013

What the bible says about dreamers

Elizaeth Prata, Dreams, 2003
Everyone is dreaming a dream now. Everyone is having a vision now. It's practically the ticket of entry into a church and almost required for faith...among the Charismatics and false teachers, that is.

Until about about 100 years ago when the charismatic and experience-driven Azusa Street Revival broke out, these kind of ecstatic experiences never were part of a normal Christian working faith. Since 33 AD or certainly since 94 AD, the normal Christian did the 'boring things' of prayer, service, congregational worship, study, ministry, work, and family building. But why do all that when you can have an experience, hear God personally, and have His 'truth' plopped right down on your head and become famous over it?

The truth is, for 1900 years, dreams were not a part of the normal Christian expectation, and the following verses denounce, diminish and dismiss the experience of having a dream as important at all.

"Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities." (Jude 1:8)

MacArthur explains this verse:

"So what we have here then at best is that false teachers, now follow this, false teachers inevitably have to have a source for their deception. And they have to have a source that's believable. They have to have a source that has some authority, or that is convincing. So they can't just say, "I think..." They can't just say, "I feel..." They can't just say, "We've got a committee in our group and we came up with this deal." The really effective false teachers and apostates will inevitably tell you God communicates to them in secret ways, in their dreams, in their visions. These are revelatory experiences. Apostate false teachers from Joseph Smith to Benny Hinn and everybody in between claim that God speaks to them in their dreams, in their visions. And this, of course, transcends the necessity to be submissive to the Word of God which is not in their hearts anyway. And it gives them the illusion of authority and God gets blamed for all their aberrations. They reject the Word of God."

MacArthur calls those the 'terrorists of the church'.

"[ Paul's Visions and His Thorn ] I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord." (2 Corinthians 12:1)

Paul is telling the Corinthians of his troubles, and had just listed his persecutions. It was an incredible list, so incredible that it had all happened to one person, Paul said that God Himself is witness to it. And though it does no good, Paul said, he must go on telling them of his visions though it was not profitable, because it could tempt him to pride. However, the Corinthians' fascination with the false teachers' false visions and revelations left him little choice to tell what a real apostle who had real dreams and real revelations is all about. The point here is, there is nothing to be gained by telling of visions and dreams.

"Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about
Gustav Klimt: Music, 1895
visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind," (Colossians 2:18).

This tells us that visions puff up and that going on about them would disqualify you! All that going on about dreams and visions do is spiritually intimidate the brethren! Don't fall for it!

"And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," (2 Peter 1:19)

What Peter is saying here is that despite having seen the transfigured Jesus Himself prior to even the resurrection (!) Peter says there is something more sure than a powerful experience like that: the WORD.

MacArthur explains:
"Literally the Greek order is this, "And we have more sure the prophetic word." More sure than what? More sure than experience, even the valid, genuine experience of the Apostles. Peter's reply to anyone who wants to question his experience is that there is a more reliable source, that is the Word of God. ... God Himself has repeatedly emphasized that the Word is a sufficient source of truth, the Word is in inerrant, the Word is in infallible, truth never to be questioned, and never to be helped along or validated, as it were, by experience."

Just because an experience may be credibly supernatural does not mean it came from God.

Fazzini sculpture "Resurrection" @ Vatican
"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24).

Please do not listen to dreamers and people's retelling of visions. Please do not seek after dreams and visions. Do not undergo a trance in order to induce a dream or a vision. If you think you have had a supernatural dream, keep it to yourself, consult the bible to see if it is consistent with the more sure word. If it is, praise the Lord and go on about your business.  If it is not, pray to be protected from satanic invasions such as that and then examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. (2 Corinthians 13:5).

5 comments:

  1. "Just because an experience may be credibly supernatural does not mean it came from God."

    Amen, sister.

    I'm personally sick of all this "dreams and visions" stuff. Mainstreamed by Warren, Moore, that Heaven for Real book where the kid supposedly went to Heaven, etc, this nonsense is becoming far too common.

    I think I'll stick with the "boring" stuff.

    -carolyn

    ReplyDelete
  2. What version of the bible are you using? not all the Scriptures are matching up with the Scriptures.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Examples please. Chapters and verses.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Please do your research before you write an article, and do not lead people astray:

    Joel 2:28King James Version (KJV)

    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    Acts 2: 17

    "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Claudine,

      I agree, it’s important to do research before posting things or saying things. I have done my research, of that you can be assured.
      It is also important not to take scripture out of context, very important. Unfortunately, this is what you have done. I’d say back to you in reply, in the same spirit, please do your research before posting things. It is easy to "lead people astray" by twisting the Bible, which Peter says the unstable do. 2 Peter 3:16

      Please allow me to explain why the seeming proof-text you posted is not a proof text for supporting the notion that people going around today authoritatively speaking from their supposed dreams and visions from God..
      Peter’s sermon at Pentecost in Acts 2 opens with this extended quote from Joel 2, which Peter even states is from Joel 2
      17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
      that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
      and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
      and your young men shall see visions,
      and your old men shall dream dreams;
      18 even on my male servants and female servants
      in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
      19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
      and signs on the earth below,
      blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
      20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
      and the moon to blood,
      before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
      21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

      So in posting just one part, your favored part, of the entire passage, you ripped it from context. Has the moon and sun been turned to darkness and blood? Has God done wonders and signs in the heavens? Has the day of the Lord come? No. Neither has the time when men and women will dream dreams and prophesy. Therefore you can’t “use” only one portion of scripture to prove your point and rip it from the main point of the passage while ignoring the rest.
      And what IS the main point of Joel’s passage? It is eschatological in nature. It is about the Day of the Lord. It says so right within its own context.

      The Lord is not going to speak again, IN ANY WAY, until He comes again. He will not speak in dreams, or visions, or signs, or wonders as the Joel passage shows He will. He has spoken already in His Son (Hebrews 1:1-2). Why would God give people direct revelation in visions and dreams when the completed canon of the Bible has already authoritatively spoken? He would not and he does not.
      The passage refers to the time when He will be speaking again after the rapture during the Tribulation and also throughout the Messianic Millennial Kingdom. THAT is the context of Joel and it is what Peter was peaking of. Here is a good sermon on Acts 2 that might give you a wider understanding. Cheers,

      https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1705/peters-sermon-explaining-pentecost

      Delete

The Idlers at the Gate

‎This celebrated sixty-ninth psalm has been called the missionary’s psalm. It speaks of the miseries of one far from home and kindred, of o...