- Get link
- X
- Other Apps
A major 'Christian' conference at the Georgia Dome was just concluded this week. It was called Passion 2013 and 60,000 youths attended.
Joining founder and leader Louie Giglio at the conference were the band Jesus Culture, Judah Smith, Chris Tomlin, Lecrae, Francis Chan, John Piper and Beth Moore, plus several other speakers and singers.
As with any large "movement", or sellout venue that says it features Jesus as its centerpiece, we wish to rejoice. Our hearts want revival. We want to see many come to know Jesus to the salvation of their souls. We love to praise Him in large numbers. But being a discerning Berean, I know that the bible says that the end time will be rife with false movements, false Jesuses being proclaimed and that they will not endure sound doctrine and will heap up teachers to themselves who tell them what they want to hear. So where does Passion 2013 stand in terms of doctrinal purity, safe absorption of its proclamations and general joy in corporate praise?
Sorely lacking.
The alert-meter is off the charts on this one and I am sad to say that from the many hours I've invested in listening to what came out of it I have more tears than applause. I will write a series of blog entries addressing some of the major speakers and singers doctrines. I do this so that we can be warned and so that we can begin a rescue operation toward those whom we know who attended or who are influenced by these people. I do this because I love the Jesus of the bible as He has revealed Himself- not as the one experienced by others in visions and signs. I do this because I love my brothers and sisters and do not want to see them stumble over this obstruction satan has put in their way.
Which Jesus was preached at Passion 2013? Let's find out by looking at what its participants said at the conference and prior in other venues. So who are these people? Let's begin by looking at a band called "Jesus Culture"
In my first essay reacting to what was taught at Passion 2013, I want to take a look at Jesus Culture's lead singer, Kim Walker-Smith. After that in subsequent entries I'll look at Louie Giglio and Judah Smith before concluding.
Kim Walker-Smith [Notice her hyphenated name, and read Genesis 2:24] is a part of the Jesus Culture Band. She is part of a home church called Bethel Church in Redding CA. Smith is a worship leader and/or a "worship pastor" at that same church, which teaches heresies. On her church page she is listed as as "a passionate worship leader with an anointing to bring an entire generation into an encounter with God." I'm impressed. The Apostles didn't even have such an anointing.
At a conference called 'Awakening 2011' Smith shared with the audience a vision she said she had. It was an experience of cuddling with Jesus, and God was nearby too. She said her vision buoyed her and she lives off it, explaining, "I live off of the encounter ... until the next one." Yet the bible says “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4:4). This means we don't live just in the flesh and for the flesh (having adrenaline rushed encounters) but we live by His word.
The problem that comes from living from encounter to encounter is three-fold: first, we live by His word as the bible commands, not by experiences. Second, human nature requires ever bigger rushes. The last one has to be topped. It is the Law of Diminishing returns for an adrenaline junkie. Adrenaline junkies seek encounters or experiences in which a high is produced by epinephrine released by the adrenal gland. It produces a fight-or-flight response (one which Ms Smith admits she felt during each of the encounters she described). The problem is that each 'high' has to be succeeded by one with more oomph in order to achieve the same effect. It seems like it would be an upward spiral but it is really a downward one. Third, what happens when the encounters stop? They do and they will. After each high, there is a low. What will sustain her faith then? If you live by the word, it will never pass away. (Matthew 24:35).
Here is a bit of what Mrs Smith said regarding her encounter with Jesus and God:
"This is not a normal thing for me, to have these encounters." But then later she said "I live off of the encounter ... until the next one." We know from the bible that several righteous men encountered Jesus as He is glorified, but they are few. Few. Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and John were lifted up and saw Him in heaven. Of those four, three were allowed to relate a small bit of what they saw and Paul was commanded not to speak of it at all. Peter saw a transfigured Christ on earth, Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus and Moses encountered God atop Mt Sinai.
In comparing her experience with the ones above from the bible, the two experiences are dramatically different. I'll summarize what Mrs Walker-Smith has said in her video testimony. Then we will compare her experience to those who experienced God from the bible's record:
In her vision, she said she saw Jesus and God behind Him. God beckoned for her to come closer. When she did, two questions popped into her mind that she wanted to ask Jesus. One was "How much do you love me, and the other was "What were you thinking when you created me?"
In answering her question as to how much Jesus loved her, Smith said he started stretching out his arms, and it looked like Stretch Armstrong, the superhero cartoon character "whose arms and legs could stretch out like spaghetti noodles. And He's laughing hysterically."
A person entering the presence of God and Jesus would become immediately insensate & insensible. But Mrs Smith remained conscious enough in her own flesh to ask Jesus to 'tell me about me.' Then she likens him to a cartoon character, and says he laughed hysterically. Hysterical laughter is out-of-control laughter, and Jesus is never out of control.
The bible tells us that if you were one of the FEW men to have seen heaven while still alive that what you see is unlawful to express. (2 Corinthians 12:4). But if directed to tell, the visionary must use many symbols and metaphors to try and get the point across because the scene is so incomprehensible. The writer uses exalted metaphors to convey the inexpressible beauty and holiness of the scene. The writers did not use everyday toys and cartoon characters to convey the scene, in no way is that appropriate. The metaphors themselves that John or Ezekiel used for example were 'hair white like wool, eyes like a flame, feet like bronze', (Revelation 1) 'a brightness all around Him...like a bow in the sky.' (Ezekiel 1:27-28).
After Daniel's visions of the Ancient of Days, he became "distressed, alarmed and dismayed." (Daniel 7:15). That sounds bad enough, but the Hebrew says the word alarmed means active suffering and piercing grief. (Strong's). Yet in Mrs Smith's visions she giggled like a schoolgirl and cuddled in Jesus' arms while God roamed around nearby.
Mrs Smith said that she had wanted to ask Jesus two questions but in that first vision had only asked one. She continued in her sharing of her now second vision in which the unasked question was answered: "What were you thinking when you made me". She said that a few months later she was watching the sun come up early in the morning. "I like to watch the sun come up, which is a miracle in itself ... because I am not a morning person." Oh wait, I thought she was going to praise the creator.
"Again, I felt the presence of the Lord, and I felt like He wanted me to ask that question. Jesus is like, 'Please, please ask me that question.' And again he said, 'Please, please ask me that question."
The scene she describes here is of a begging Jesus. It continues:
Smith said she's now standing with Jesus. In front of her is God the father. Jesus's got a table, and He reaches into His body and clutches his heart and rips a chunk off His heart and throws it on the table... he fashions her out of a clay or play-dough like substance, puts her into a ballerina music box where she begins dancing, and then Jesus begins shouting "who hooooo" while running around with his arms up, continually going around, "woo hoo!" in circles, running around a bunch of times. Smith said he looked like a jack in the box.
"Then I'm in the palm of the Father's hand...and I see His heart and the outline of his heart and the outline is the chunk he ripped out and he slides me into His heart like a puzzle piece and it's a perfect fit. Smith said Jesus told her, "I made you because you make me happy."
A few days ago, I wrote about the Therapeutic Gospel. I noted how the Gnostic changes the emphasis of the Gospel from the work of Jesus to our own worth. I'd said:
This is not possible. It does not line up with the scriptures and if it does not line up with scripture, it is false.
In looking at the biblical record of people who were lifted to heaven or saw Jesus glorified, we compare their reactions with Kim Walker-Smith's. For example, Isaiah-
Isaiah said, "And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" (Isaiah 6:5)
"Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking." (Ezekiel 1:28b)
"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead." (Revelation 1:17). The Greek word "dead" in that verse means literally 'one that has breathed his last, lifeless'.
The point is, when men encounter the Christ in all His glory, you become insensate with fear and dumb in the face of His holiness. Even the ones who encountered Him in human form prior to His appearing (Hagar, Jacob, for ex.) were relieved they did not drop down dead. After Hagar's encounter with Him, she asked (in the Hebrew), "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Of Jacob, it is written, "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Genesis 32:30)
Just seeing His light, never mind His glorified holy body, caused Paul to fall straight to the ground (Acts 9:3). In Exodus 34:30 the people saw the shining visage of Moses of the glory of God reflected on his face and they were so afraid that Moses had to put a veil over it. The bible consistently records that the first and only reaction of these people who had direct and indirect encounters with God were that they were: a. terrified and b. struck dumb as if dead. So what are we to think of Mrs Smith's encounter where she cuddled, talked about herself and learned that Jesus wasn't happy before He made her?
It varies completely from all biblical records of anyone who directly or indirectly encountered the holiness of God. Therefore is it only logical to conclude that her visions are false.
We have become so inured to the notion of sin and by contrast His holiness, that we accept a ridiculous story such as Mrs Smith's as inspiring or uplifting.
The problem with destructive heresies are that many are brought secretly. 2 Peter 2:1 says
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."
Mrs Smith isn't saying outright that "I deny the Master." That is not how false teachers work. Don't expect the most subtle creature in the garden to cause his minions to outright deny the Master. How she does it is that in her vision description, she is denying the Master by telling us that we can expect encounters like these and that we live off them. She is denying the Master because He is the Word, not the experience-- but she exalts the experience and not the Word. The word confirms the word, (2 Timothy 3:16) the experience does not confirm the word. (2 Peter 1:19). If in that verse Peter wouldn't even use his experience to confirm a truth nor would Paul (2 Corinthians 12:6) then what are we to say of Mrs Smith? Everything she does and says implicitly and explicitly denies the sufficiency of Scripture- and that denies the Master.
Additionally, the heresies she holds in her heart are secret because of 2 Timothy 3:5. Outwardly the Jesus Culture songs appear to have a form of godliness via their lyrics, but they deny God's power by being sung from a heart that does not rest on the knowledge of this same Jesus we know through His word. If you hadn't googled about her and watched this testimony of her vision, you would think that the song I linked to above, "Where you go I'll go" was good. Its outward form of godliness seems OK but inwardly there is a ravenous wolf waiting to spring. That wolf is the exaltation of personal experience as a validation of the word to the exclusion of the word itself by the person who wrote it and sings it. The filter of flesh that the song comes from has been polluted with leaven.
Jesus said, "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' (Matthew 15:18)
In 2011 John MacArthur preached about the Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. He was not referring specifically to Smith and Jesus Culture, and their songs but was in general preaching against the incorrect attribution of things of satan to the Spirit. There are too many false visions and signs plaguing the church today.
MacArthur said
The tongue corrupts the whole person.
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6)
Like any invasive species, the invasion is first undetectable (secretly brought in). For example, zebra mussels. The invasive species may attach to a large container ship which appears mighty and powerful but undetected the mussel colony grows and eventually the prop and the rudder will be frozen in a mass of mussels as solid as cement.
Before you know it, your pipe or prop is clogged and the water will not flow. If the living water does not flow, the machine or the organism it's attached to dies.
Paul used the metaphor of gangrene, and Jesus used the example of leaven spoiling the whole loaf and the tares choking out the wheat. In all cases, the invading organism chokes off the life supply of the home organism and the home organism dies.
Are you getting my theme? Untreated false leaven brings death.
That is what accepting a song does that's written from a heart that obviously does not understand who Jesus is. It may seem innocuous to the church body but it is in actuality brought by an invading organism bent on your destruction. It is not just a song like a tare is not just a tare.
The heartbreak is that people like the folks in Jesus Culture are probably not cackling vultures twirling their mustaches like Snidely Whiplash in back rooms and applauding their satanic success. They may not even know they are bringing destructive heresies. They are like the container ship that under its waterline had some zebra mussels clinging to it, unbenownst to them. "Human beings who promote paganism, the occult, and various other ungodly and immoral movements and programs are but the dupes of Satan and his demons. They are trapped by their sins and weaknesses into unwittingly helping to fulfill his schemes." (source)
But if they go too far down this path, extricating them will be a hard go. They will be trapped. Here is what you need to do, as do I:
"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:1-3)
On a personal note, I found this entire exercise difficult. I watched hours of the conference at Passion, read reactions to it and listened to interviews. It is hard to see so many of our children being drawn away. It physically hurts. My laptop is covered in tears. I take no glee in bringing this message out. All those youths and youth pastors and speakers and bands need rescuing. They need to be rescued, cared for back in the doctrinally sanitary hospital of their home church, but the sanitation of each home church is increasingly compromised these days. I fear for those kids and I mourn the blasphemies done to the Spirit when calling the devil's work His work.
I look at the photo above of the 60,000 in attendance and I faint at the knowledge at how insidiously satan has infiltrated poisonous leaven into our churches via the youth. Each youth and youth pastor and person attending carries back to their home church (if they have one) a tiny zebra mussel nestled in their bilge, waiting to multiply and then choke the flow of water through the veins of the church.
I plan a few more blog entries reacting to the Passion 2013 conference. One will focus on Louie Giglio. Another on Judah Smith and also be a summary conclusion. Pray that eyes will be opened to the heresies and blasphemies being done to our precious Jesus and in the name of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is more powerful than satan and His Holy Spirit destroys strongholds! Pray, people!
"For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." (2 Corinthians 10:3-6)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Part 2: Discerning a Gnostic conference called "Passion 2013," Louie Giglio
Part 3: Conclusion
Joining founder and leader Louie Giglio at the conference were the band Jesus Culture, Judah Smith, Chris Tomlin, Lecrae, Francis Chan, John Piper and Beth Moore, plus several other speakers and singers.
As with any large "movement", or sellout venue that says it features Jesus as its centerpiece, we wish to rejoice. Our hearts want revival. We want to see many come to know Jesus to the salvation of their souls. We love to praise Him in large numbers. But being a discerning Berean, I know that the bible says that the end time will be rife with false movements, false Jesuses being proclaimed and that they will not endure sound doctrine and will heap up teachers to themselves who tell them what they want to hear. So where does Passion 2013 stand in terms of doctrinal purity, safe absorption of its proclamations and general joy in corporate praise?
Sorely lacking.
The alert-meter is off the charts on this one and I am sad to say that from the many hours I've invested in listening to what came out of it I have more tears than applause. I will write a series of blog entries addressing some of the major speakers and singers doctrines. I do this so that we can be warned and so that we can begin a rescue operation toward those whom we know who attended or who are influenced by these people. I do this because I love the Jesus of the bible as He has revealed Himself- not as the one experienced by others in visions and signs. I do this because I love my brothers and sisters and do not want to see them stumble over this obstruction satan has put in their way.
Which Jesus was preached at Passion 2013? Let's find out by looking at what its participants said at the conference and prior in other venues. So who are these people? Let's begin by looking at a band called "Jesus Culture"
 |
| Source Do Not Be Surprised via Twitter/Giglio |
Kim Walker-Smith [Notice her hyphenated name, and read Genesis 2:24] is a part of the Jesus Culture Band. She is part of a home church called Bethel Church in Redding CA. Smith is a worship leader and/or a "worship pastor" at that same church, which teaches heresies. On her church page she is listed as as "a passionate worship leader with an anointing to bring an entire generation into an encounter with God." I'm impressed. The Apostles didn't even have such an anointing.
At a conference called 'Awakening 2011' Smith shared with the audience a vision she said she had. It was an experience of cuddling with Jesus, and God was nearby too. She said her vision buoyed her and she lives off it, explaining, "I live off of the encounter ... until the next one." Yet the bible says “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4:4). This means we don't live just in the flesh and for the flesh (having adrenaline rushed encounters) but we live by His word.
The problem that comes from living from encounter to encounter is three-fold: first, we live by His word as the bible commands, not by experiences. Second, human nature requires ever bigger rushes. The last one has to be topped. It is the Law of Diminishing returns for an adrenaline junkie. Adrenaline junkies seek encounters or experiences in which a high is produced by epinephrine released by the adrenal gland. It produces a fight-or-flight response (one which Ms Smith admits she felt during each of the encounters she described). The problem is that each 'high' has to be succeeded by one with more oomph in order to achieve the same effect. It seems like it would be an upward spiral but it is really a downward one. Third, what happens when the encounters stop? They do and they will. After each high, there is a low. What will sustain her faith then? If you live by the word, it will never pass away. (Matthew 24:35).
Here is a bit of what Mrs Smith said regarding her encounter with Jesus and God:
"This is not a normal thing for me, to have these encounters." But then later she said "I live off of the encounter ... until the next one." We know from the bible that several righteous men encountered Jesus as He is glorified, but they are few. Few. Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and John were lifted up and saw Him in heaven. Of those four, three were allowed to relate a small bit of what they saw and Paul was commanded not to speak of it at all. Peter saw a transfigured Christ on earth, Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus and Moses encountered God atop Mt Sinai.
In comparing her experience with the ones above from the bible, the two experiences are dramatically different. I'll summarize what Mrs Walker-Smith has said in her video testimony. Then we will compare her experience to those who experienced God from the bible's record:
In her vision, she said she saw Jesus and God behind Him. God beckoned for her to come closer. When she did, two questions popped into her mind that she wanted to ask Jesus. One was "How much do you love me, and the other was "What were you thinking when you created me?"
A person entering the presence of God and Jesus would become immediately insensate & insensible. But Mrs Smith remained conscious enough in her own flesh to ask Jesus to 'tell me about me.' Then she likens him to a cartoon character, and says he laughed hysterically. Hysterical laughter is out-of-control laughter, and Jesus is never out of control.
The bible tells us that if you were one of the FEW men to have seen heaven while still alive that what you see is unlawful to express. (2 Corinthians 12:4). But if directed to tell, the visionary must use many symbols and metaphors to try and get the point across because the scene is so incomprehensible. The writer uses exalted metaphors to convey the inexpressible beauty and holiness of the scene. The writers did not use everyday toys and cartoon characters to convey the scene, in no way is that appropriate. The metaphors themselves that John or Ezekiel used for example were 'hair white like wool, eyes like a flame, feet like bronze', (Revelation 1) 'a brightness all around Him...like a bow in the sky.' (Ezekiel 1:27-28).
After Daniel's visions of the Ancient of Days, he became "distressed, alarmed and dismayed." (Daniel 7:15). That sounds bad enough, but the Hebrew says the word alarmed means active suffering and piercing grief. (Strong's). Yet in Mrs Smith's visions she giggled like a schoolgirl and cuddled in Jesus' arms while God roamed around nearby.
Mrs Smith said that she had wanted to ask Jesus two questions but in that first vision had only asked one. She continued in her sharing of her now second vision in which the unasked question was answered: "What were you thinking when you made me". She said that a few months later she was watching the sun come up early in the morning. "I like to watch the sun come up, which is a miracle in itself ... because I am not a morning person." Oh wait, I thought she was going to praise the creator.
"Again, I felt the presence of the Lord, and I felt like He wanted me to ask that question. Jesus is like, 'Please, please ask me that question.' And again he said, 'Please, please ask me that question."
The scene she describes here is of a begging Jesus. It continues:
Smith said she's now standing with Jesus. In front of her is God the father. Jesus's got a table, and He reaches into His body and clutches his heart and rips a chunk off His heart and throws it on the table... he fashions her out of a clay or play-dough like substance, puts her into a ballerina music box where she begins dancing, and then Jesus begins shouting "who hooooo" while running around with his arms up, continually going around, "woo hoo!" in circles, running around a bunch of times. Smith said he looked like a jack in the box.
"Then I'm in the palm of the Father's hand...and I see His heart and the outline of his heart and the outline is the chunk he ripped out and he slides me into His heart like a puzzle piece and it's a perfect fit. Smith said Jesus told her, "I made you because you make me happy."
A few days ago, I wrote about the Therapeutic Gospel. I noted how the Gnostic changes the emphasis of the Gospel from the work of Jesus to our own worth. I'd said:
The Therapeutic Gospel does something else that's devastating. It leads us to believe that it is our worth that motivates God's action to save us. The thinking is, Jesus came to save us because we are so valuable to God. ... A good example comes from comparing two parables.Jesus did not create us because it made Him happy. He made humans so as to bring HIM glory. (Romans 11:36). Do you see the exact Gnostic emphasis that is present in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas is also in Smith's vision? It was the worth of Kim Walker-Smith that caused Jesus to make her? And in so doing brought Jesus a measure of happiness he had not had before?
Pastor Wax compares the subtle shift in a counterfeit Gospel from being Christ-centered to man-centered, by comparing the parable of the sheep as they are presented in Luke and in the false Gospel of Thomas. Here is the Gospel of Luke:
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:4-7)
The other is from the non-canonical, false Gospel of Thomas.
"Jesus said, "The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine sheep and looked for that one until he found it. When he had gone to such trouble, he said to the sheep, 'I care for you more than the ninety-nine.'" (FALSE, NON-CANONICAL “Gospel of Thomas”)
What has happened here, said Pr. Wax, is that in the counterfeit Gnostic gospel the point of the parable in the counterfeit is about the worth of the sheep, instead of the work of the Shepherd.
This is not possible. It does not line up with the scriptures and if it does not line up with scripture, it is false.
In looking at the biblical record of people who were lifted to heaven or saw Jesus glorified, we compare their reactions with Kim Walker-Smith's. For example, Isaiah-
Isaiah said, "And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" (Isaiah 6:5)
"Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking." (Ezekiel 1:28b)
"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead." (Revelation 1:17). The Greek word "dead" in that verse means literally 'one that has breathed his last, lifeless'.
The point is, when men encounter the Christ in all His glory, you become insensate with fear and dumb in the face of His holiness. Even the ones who encountered Him in human form prior to His appearing (Hagar, Jacob, for ex.) were relieved they did not drop down dead. After Hagar's encounter with Him, she asked (in the Hebrew), "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Of Jacob, it is written, "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Genesis 32:30)
Just seeing His light, never mind His glorified holy body, caused Paul to fall straight to the ground (Acts 9:3). In Exodus 34:30 the people saw the shining visage of Moses of the glory of God reflected on his face and they were so afraid that Moses had to put a veil over it. The bible consistently records that the first and only reaction of these people who had direct and indirect encounters with God were that they were: a. terrified and b. struck dumb as if dead. So what are we to think of Mrs Smith's encounter where she cuddled, talked about herself and learned that Jesus wasn't happy before He made her?
It varies completely from all biblical records of anyone who directly or indirectly encountered the holiness of God. Therefore is it only logical to conclude that her visions are false.
We have become so inured to the notion of sin and by contrast His holiness, that we accept a ridiculous story such as Mrs Smith's as inspiring or uplifting.
The problem with destructive heresies are that many are brought secretly. 2 Peter 2:1 says
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."
Mrs Smith isn't saying outright that "I deny the Master." That is not how false teachers work. Don't expect the most subtle creature in the garden to cause his minions to outright deny the Master. How she does it is that in her vision description, she is denying the Master by telling us that we can expect encounters like these and that we live off them. She is denying the Master because He is the Word, not the experience-- but she exalts the experience and not the Word. The word confirms the word, (2 Timothy 3:16) the experience does not confirm the word. (2 Peter 1:19). If in that verse Peter wouldn't even use his experience to confirm a truth nor would Paul (2 Corinthians 12:6) then what are we to say of Mrs Smith? Everything she does and says implicitly and explicitly denies the sufficiency of Scripture- and that denies the Master.
Additionally, the heresies she holds in her heart are secret because of 2 Timothy 3:5. Outwardly the Jesus Culture songs appear to have a form of godliness via their lyrics, but they deny God's power by being sung from a heart that does not rest on the knowledge of this same Jesus we know through His word. If you hadn't googled about her and watched this testimony of her vision, you would think that the song I linked to above, "Where you go I'll go" was good. Its outward form of godliness seems OK but inwardly there is a ravenous wolf waiting to spring. That wolf is the exaltation of personal experience as a validation of the word to the exclusion of the word itself by the person who wrote it and sings it. The filter of flesh that the song comes from has been polluted with leaven.
Jesus said, "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' (Matthew 15:18)
In 2011 John MacArthur preached about the Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. He was not referring specifically to Smith and Jesus Culture, and their songs but was in general preaching against the incorrect attribution of things of satan to the Spirit. There are too many false visions and signs plaguing the church today.
MacArthur said
"...and mostly this comes in the professing church from Pentecostals and Charismatics who feel they have free license to abuse the Holy Spirit and even blaspheme His holy name. And they do it constantly. How do they do it? By attributing to the Holy Spirit words that He didn’t say, deeds that He didn’t do, and experiences that He didn’t produce, attributing to the Holy Spirit that which is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Endless human experiences, emotional experiences, bizarre experiences and demonic experiences are said to come from the Holy Spirit…visions, revelations, voices from heaven, messages from the Spirit through transcendental means, dreams, speaking in tongues, prophecies, out of body experiences, trips to heaven, anointings, miracles. All false, all lies, all deceptions attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit."
"Satan is alive and well and the work of Satan is being attributed to the Holy Spirit, that is a serious blasphemy just as attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit is a serious blasphemy."
The tongue corrupts the whole person.
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6)
Before you know it, your pipe or prop is clogged and the water will not flow. If the living water does not flow, the machine or the organism it's attached to dies.
Paul used the metaphor of gangrene, and Jesus used the example of leaven spoiling the whole loaf and the tares choking out the wheat. In all cases, the invading organism chokes off the life supply of the home organism and the home organism dies.
Are you getting my theme? Untreated false leaven brings death.
That is what accepting a song does that's written from a heart that obviously does not understand who Jesus is. It may seem innocuous to the church body but it is in actuality brought by an invading organism bent on your destruction. It is not just a song like a tare is not just a tare.
The heartbreak is that people like the folks in Jesus Culture are probably not cackling vultures twirling their mustaches like Snidely Whiplash in back rooms and applauding their satanic success. They may not even know they are bringing destructive heresies. They are like the container ship that under its waterline had some zebra mussels clinging to it, unbenownst to them. "Human beings who promote paganism, the occult, and various other ungodly and immoral movements and programs are but the dupes of Satan and his demons. They are trapped by their sins and weaknesses into unwittingly helping to fulfill his schemes." (source)
But if they go too far down this path, extricating them will be a hard go. They will be trapped. Here is what you need to do, as do I:
"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:1-3)
On a personal note, I found this entire exercise difficult. I watched hours of the conference at Passion, read reactions to it and listened to interviews. It is hard to see so many of our children being drawn away. It physically hurts. My laptop is covered in tears. I take no glee in bringing this message out. All those youths and youth pastors and speakers and bands need rescuing. They need to be rescued, cared for back in the doctrinally sanitary hospital of their home church, but the sanitation of each home church is increasingly compromised these days. I fear for those kids and I mourn the blasphemies done to the Spirit when calling the devil's work His work.
I look at the photo above of the 60,000 in attendance and I faint at the knowledge at how insidiously satan has infiltrated poisonous leaven into our churches via the youth. Each youth and youth pastor and person attending carries back to their home church (if they have one) a tiny zebra mussel nestled in their bilge, waiting to multiply and then choke the flow of water through the veins of the church.
I plan a few more blog entries reacting to the Passion 2013 conference. One will focus on Louie Giglio. Another on Judah Smith and also be a summary conclusion. Pray that eyes will be opened to the heresies and blasphemies being done to our precious Jesus and in the name of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is more powerful than satan and His Holy Spirit destroys strongholds! Pray, people!
"For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." (2 Corinthians 10:3-6)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Part 2: Discerning a Gnostic conference called "Passion 2013," Louie Giglio
Part 3: Conclusion
Oh how I thirst for righteousness, I hope and pray for others to be given righteousness too and come to a knowledge of the truth.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth, I thought that dreams, visions, speaking in tongues, revelations, prophesies, and miracles were the work of God. (in response to the MacArthur quotes)
1 Corinthians 12:10 (KJV)
I do understand that there are many false prophets and false workers though. The vision is Acts 10 is an example of a genuine vision, but mostly what we see nowadays are false prophets/teachers.
I suppose the point is that ALOT of what we see is just simply deception, but somethings such as a revelation can be genuine.
Also, I looked at the first pic you posted and immediately I felt something was amiss. Then the second, again...worldly, adrenaline, almost looks like it's meant for entertainment and to make people feel good about their sin-ridden lives (itching ears). I shouldn't say that I'm proud of my sin, but I am proud that through what Jesus did for us He gives us mercy and grace. I pray to not use His grace in vain, I want to produce fruit of the Spirit and avoid sin.
-Hey Elizabeth, would you like to read (and proofread perhaps) something I wrote? It's on rap-con.com -> forums -> End Times prophecy -> The Great Apostasy. Hope to hear/read a response =)
Love, from Drew
Drew, the biblical record contained both false and true visions, dreams, and miracles. Not all supernatural miracles were from God. Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicated several of the miracles performed through Moses. We are told that in the future the antichrist will come in all power of false signs and wonders. 2 Thess 2:9
DeleteHowever the bible indicates that when the church age began at Pentecost, He would endow His apostles with miracle producing power- for a time and for a specific reason. It was for a sign. "The sign gifts were a confirmation of God's message and messenger, in order that people might hear and believe. Once the message was confirmed, the signs faded away."
That is why there has been no authenticated sign or miracle in the intervening 1900 years. Jesus on toast notwithstanding...
We have the bible now, as a sign, and it is through His living and active word via scriptures that we hear His voice.
More here- http://www.gotquestions.org/sign-gifts.html
Sir might i ask why you have twisted scripture in this paragraph first of all joel chapter#2:28-32 now why are taking away what the bible says about prophecy and visions in these last days ...sounds to me like these young people are seeing visions from god just another prophecy fulfilled in my eyes ....but there is a lot of false teachings false prophets in the world .....we got to line it up with scripture and the holy spirit ....test the spirit by the spirit....be blessed brothers and sisters in christ....may we keep each other lifted in prayers ....
DeleteHi Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteI presented this article to some Jesus Culture followers. One young woman noted that not everyone who saw the risen Christ became insensate and insensible. Only Paul did, as far as I see in the NT. The NT record agrees with that statement. Did you mean something else? I agree with your article, and am using it to dissaude Jesus Culture followers from attending their events. Your response would be helpful.
God bless you!
The young woman is parsing details that are irrelevant to the main point. I'll answer, but when giving information to people who refuse to accept it, they will always distract by taking the person on a tangent. No on can compare themselves with Paul, who was chosen as an apostle, being taken to heaven, and given visions and dreams for the next thirty years. He founded Christianity for heaven's sake! Oy, these kids.
DeleteOK, if they want to point to Paul then say that God Himself told Paul NOT TO SPEAK of what he saw. Therefore even if they don't become insensate, (which I believe he absolutely did) and clinging to the erroneous notion that they are being visited by God, then we have to take the direction in the bible that these things are not to be spoken of.
If they say, "Well God told me to say it" then ask why their vision varies with the biblical record. Or answer, "I had a vision, and God told me you are wrong." How can they argue... it becomes a battle of 'my God told me, ..nu-uh, my God told ME...'
Now as for Paul,
1. In 2 Cor 12 he says there "is nothing to be gained" by speaking of visions.
2. He himself didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body, indicating that it was too complex a physical event to even be able to comprehend. if he didn't know if he was in his own body then it *exactly* means he became insensate,
3. Verse 4 says he saw things that "cannot" be told and a man "may not" utter. Have the rules changed? May a man speak of them now? No, Paul said man is not authorized to speak of these things.
4. Paul wrote in verse 6 the reason he does NOT speak of his visit: "But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me." Aren't they being disobedient, speaking of these things so that people may think more of them?
5. And to cement the deal of not boasting and not speaking of these things, Jesus gave him a thorn in the flesh that was so troublesome he asked three times for it to be removed.
If the vision-people want visions on the same terms as Paul then have at it. Don't speak, nothing to be gained, and a thorn. By the way, the thorn in his flesh was a demon.
The point is, the canon is closed as Hebrews says. Jesus has spoken to us by His son (Hebrews 1:2).
GOOD FOR YOU that you're trying to reach these kids! Thank you a million times over :)
Hi Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteYes, she missed the point, and she is stumbling.
To clarify, her response is referring to Jesus appearing to people after the resurrection - the disciples/apostles, the women at the tomb, the 500, the men on the Emmaus road,etc.
I can understand the logic of her objection, paraphrased as this: "the author says 'A person entering the presence of God and Jesus would become immediately insensate & insensible'", and there are lots of people who were in the presence of Jesus who did not become that way.'"
The sentence itself does not say "glorified Jesus," and that is clarified later in the article, and I don't think she would honestly know the difference between "Jesus in glory" and Jesus during His earthly ministry, so I can clarify that, and point to relevant Scriptures, if she's interested.
Sadly, most are not. I go on the Facebook event pages for the Jesus Culture conferences - they'll draw about 10,000 kids in the US and Canada wihthin 30 days- and I use articles like yours to try to show them the deception and apostasy. I know I'm going into enemy territory, and it's usually discouraging, but 1 Tim 4:6 Jude, Romans- all tell us to warn the brethren, mark those who cause divisions, etc.
One young person wrote to me: "Todd, haven't you noticed..no one cares?" (referring to my posts and comments). I agreed, then explained to her through Scripture about the fulfillment of prophecy in her answer in the end-times apostasy.
Some-a few- respond positively and thank me. And I know that there are many others who are at least given the information to adequately contend for the faith, if they choose.
God bless you!
Thank you a million times over for your article. It's being viewed by kids from NY, to Toronto, Seattle and Ft. Wayne, among others.
You can see your article in action (and their responses) on this Facebook page, for example:
https://www.facebook.com/events/146915122126324/
The union mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 2:24 has nothing to do with the way Mrs. Kim writes his name ... it is useless to read the rest of the article!
ReplyDeleteWow, you bailed early...
DeleteOK, how about Genesis 3:16?
http://www.gotquestions.org/desire-husband-rule.html
If you are still reading, that is...
you do not know the relationship Mrs. Kim has with her husband, these are personal matters. know about privacy? the only way she writes the name you come to any conclusions, you have made a judgment. I repeat, is just a waste of time to discuss!
ReplyDeleteIn the *public* write up about Mrs Smith, Wikipedia reports: In 2009 Kim Walker married Skyler Smith and is now referred to as Kim Walker-Smith. In her current releases she uses the name Kim Walker-Smith instead of her maiden name."
DeleteMrs Smith writes about herself is also *public*.
"I am a passionate person and it comes out in my worship. I love justice and I love people. I have a heart to see the arts and creativity restored and a new standard set. Holy Spirit is my friend. I'm married to Skyler and we are on a journey of discovering all that we can accomplish as a team! We spend our free time skating on our long-boards, playing the Wii, and dreaming. He is my best friend and I love him fiercely. Bethel Church in Redding, CA is our home church."
Notice she mentioned herself, and her accomplishments, but not Jesus.
Yes, I made a **judgment** based on scripture. Please read the following biblical reasons that "True women say 'I Do' to the name"
http://www.truewoman.com/?id=1136
1. Unity: Scripture says that when you become married, you become one flesh with your husband. Changing your name to his reflects that fact. (Gen. 2:24; Matt. 19:5)
2. Identification: Scripture teaches that it’s the man who launches out to establish a new family unit. Changing your name to his, and naming your children with the same name, identifies all of you as part of his family unit. (Gen. 2:24; Matt. 19:5)
3. Commitment: Changing your name indicates that you are making a permanent, life-long commitment to your husband, and will henceforth be identified as being inseparably linked to him. (Rom. 7:2; Matt. 19:6)
4. Roles: Changing your name to his indicates that you affirm the biblical pattern of your husband being the head of your marriage and household. (1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5)
5. Paradigm: Since the relationship between husband and wife is a paradigm of the relationship between Christ and the church, Christian women who change their name model and bear witness to the reality of Christ changing our names when we enter a relationship with Him. We—the church Bride—identify ourselves with Him and are called by His name when we become one with Him. Christ’s bride is rightly called by her Husband’s name. A woman who changes her name bears witness to this part of the gospel story. (Isa. 43:7, Acts 15:17, 2 Chron. 7:14, Rev. 3:12; 14:1)
OK? It has nothing to do with how much she loves him in private or whether I know about their relationship. It is about Christ.
The end of the article you linked blatantly says that the bible doesn't directly address the issue of a woman taking her husbands name. While, there may be a correlation to the marriage relationship and one's relationship with Christ, choosing to not take her husband's name doesn't make her relationship with Christ any less legitimate. Also, she didn't reject his name, she just hyphenated it. Perhaps what the previous poster meant, and what I strongly think, is that you don't know the reasons why she decided to hyphenate her name. There could be numerous personal reasons that don't have anything to do with an assumed rejection of Christ.
DeleteLast names weren't even a major part of the biblical culture, which make them way less of a contributing factor. The verse you keep quoting about the man and wife becoming one flesh doesn't mean that the woman just melds into the husband, yes she submits to him as the spiritual leader, but marriage is also about being a team, about both the husband and wife leaving their old lives and creating a new one together. Which makes a hyphenated last name pretty legitimate.
What you are essentially saying is, if the bible doesn't DIRECTLY address an issue, it is OK for us to do. That is skewed notion of Christian Liberty.
DeleteThe verses in Romans 14:12-16 says that some things may not be strictly prohibited by God's Word, but they can be bad for one's spiritual growth or Christian testimony and can offend other Christians whose consciences prevent them from partaking in them.
Ultimately we ask ourselves when doing or not doing any activity- will it edify God? Is it consistent with the concepts in the bible if not the blatant verses? Will it give me a good reputation before believers? Or is it something that cedes tot he culture?
Your parsing of the last name issue seeks to split hairs to cling to the culture rather than ask the very question that Jesus cares about most: is this activity consistent with Godliness and will promote holy living?
As far as your last sentence about marriage being a team, yes it is. And there is no "I" in team.
In the United States, women are placed the surnames of their husbands ... is dictated by the culture of that country, which does not mean that she (kim) is not a true child of God, much less that everything he does is guided by the Holy Spirit... talking about the meetings that she (kim) had with Jesus face to face, do not you remember when Moses had an encounter with the zarsa? (moses 3: 1-22).... she (kim) speaks of these encounters with Jesus were those who marked the beginning of his call to the ministry.. as happened with Moses himself ... and finally, if your heart not to touched by the Holy Spirit when kim sings, is because simply your knowledge of God is mental and not by revelation of the Holy Spirit (encounters with him, EXPERIENCES).. remember the Bible says that God is alive.. therefore God is a spiritual being that we live every day, every moment experience intimacy... what you do is make a judgment about what YOU appreciate, Perhaps if kim was someone used by Satan, do not believe you that those who follow Christ we had detected through the gift of discernment?... you are definitely wrong, and it shows do not know the living God.. another man who had this type of encounter with Jesus in his calling was Isaiah (Isaiah 6)..
DeleteI use Bible verses as you do you , the difference is that you use it to do evil, and I use the bible for break your spiritual blindness...
I pray that God have mercy on you, and you can really have an encounter with Jesus ... I greet you in the love of the Lord from Chile, my name is Bastian, I have 17 years and I tell you that God is alive, so .... you repent of your sins and your wickedness, God loves you and His mercies are renewed every morning...
Blessings
Hello Anonymous (Bastian),
DeleteYes, the bible can and is used to do evil. If it is your opinion that I am using it for evil then so be it.
I ask though, if Kim Smith is having living encounters with Jesus, like the men you mentioned, Isaiah and Moses- who were Prophets- then we must also listen to Kim Smith as a prophet because she had an encounter with the living God and brings back His word. Her word must then be added to the revelation He already gave us in the bible. And if the bible is not finished and other words from Jesus are to be gained, then where does it end? What if I had an encounter face to face with Jesus, and came back and announced that I had words that contradicted Kim's?
This actually happens every day- all these people who claim to have had a talk with him end up contradicting each other, so then how do you know who is telling the truth?
You don't, that is why the bible is closed and is the only truth. For example, Oral Roberts said he had a vision and encounter with a 900 foot tall Jesus and Jesus told Roberts to tell everyone to give Roberts money or Jesus would kill Roberts. Why is Oral Roberts' vision illegitimate and Walker-Smith's legitimate? How can you tell? By what standard? Do you pick and choose based on man's wisdom? 1 Cor 13:9 says the wisdom of this world is foolishness.
Revelation 22:18-19 says
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
The book is the bible. It is finished, and God in these days had spoken by His Son (Hebrews 1:2). Not by Kim Smith.
It might be good to consult the bible to show me with verses as to where I have done evil. For you just to write that I am evil with no scriptural proof carries less credibility, if any, than if you were genuinely attempting to come alongside a sister to show me my waywardness so that I could grow.
Bastian, here is an essay that and uses verses to answer this question. It might help you clear up some misunderstandings
Does God Still Give revelation today?
http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/a366/does-god-still-give-revelation
You are right, some times is just wast of time to read somethings. some people think they have the right to decided and judge others. then what the do is to put God in a box and make Him just like one of us. Who gave this person the right to Speak about what God can or can not do? Thank you for replay it help me to write what I was thinking.
DeleteWhy do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
ReplyDeleteGod bless you (Luke 6:41)
and do not use the name of Christ to accuse your brothers
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you have fallen under what is sadly a common but a twisted political correctness. Yes, I am accusing. Yes it is OK.
DeleteWe are not to judge falsely, but make a righteous judgment. (John 7:24, Mt 7:5). What Jesus and John were saying in those verses was not to NEVER make a judgment, but directing us to the proper way of forming an opinion of others, and of reproving and correcting them.
I don’t know what you mean by using Christ’s name to accuse, but I will always and forever reprove people who are using Christ’s name to do things that are of satan. I love my brethren too much to make no comment when there are unbiblical teachings that are drawing them away from Jesus. Don’t you?
Kim W. Smith is anointed? Really? Let me refer you to the false Christians of John's day. He wrote about it in 1 John 2:19-26. John MacArthur explains the verse, and the situation-
ReplyDelete"False Christians who are antichrists in John's day used to use two words to describe their religious experience. The two words that they preferred using were knowledge and anointing. And these sort of self-styled super Christians as they portrayed themselves, more intellectual, more erudite, more exalted, more transcendent, more lofty, more in the knowledge saw themselves as the knowing ones, that's there the term "Gnostic" later came from. They were in the know, they had the true and elevated and secret and esoteric and divine knowledge. And they also saw themselves as the anointed. They had received a special anointing from God, a special touch, a special designation, a special elevation which gave to them a superior knowledge, putting them on a higher level than everybody else. And so they came in as if they had all of the great insights. And John rebuts them by saying, "We have an anointing from the Holy One," as if to say, you've got an anointing all right, but it is not from the Holy One, it's from the utterly unholy one. "You have an anointing, he says to these believers, and you all know, you are in the know and you have the anointing, not them."
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/62-20/christians-and-antichrists-part-3
Sound familiar? These false Christians go around saying they have a "special anointing." They have special knowledge because they had a dream. The know more than the next guy because they had a direct revelation. It is EXACTLY the same thing as in John's day and it is back, exemplified in EXACTLY your comment. If Kim has an anointing, it is from the unholy one.
You and I agree that Islam promotes a false doctrine. However, Islam does not entice and attract weak women or others away from Christianity (2 Tim 3:6) because Islam's falsity is so easy to spot. Satan has plagued OUR faith since the beginning (Titus 1:11) and he does so very subtly (Genesis 3:1). We are warned by Paul--
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them" (Romans 16:17)
While I agree with much of this article, and also appreciate much of MacArthur's teachings, I would have to say I do not agree with the fact that the gifts of the spirit are no longer in the church today. I believe his teachings concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8 is incorrect. That scripture is about love never failing, never ceasing. Love is above all those things. When Christ comes back, these gifts will cease yet love remains. Acts 2 is not only speaking of the early church. Acts 2:17-21....in the last days? I do not recall Christ having yet returned thus these things will continue until He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.
ReplyDeleteThanks Anonymous, for your kind comments, and for reading the essay.
DeleteI'm not sure where or how you disagree with the verse...the verse says that while love never falls away, other gifts will...??
"Love doth never fall away, though that prophesyings be abolished, or the tongues cease, or knowledge vanish away."
We don't need tongues because they were a sign for the believers witnessing the phenomenon and we don't prophecy because we have the bible completed now...
I guess it goes down to one's view of scripture. If we believe we need prophecy and tongues because God has not finished speaking revelation, of if we believe the bible contains all things necessary for teaching and reproof...
This article was quite helpful and insightful. Thank you, Elizabeth, for writing it. It is a common theme for people in that 'culture' to spit in the faces of those trying to rescue them, calling them judgmental and unloving. Love does what you are doing here, and that is warning of false doctrine.
ReplyDeleteYour inflammatory rhetoric and reactionary logic defeat your case. I have seen the fruitfulness of many who have attended that conference, all of them impassioned to spread the saving knowledge of Christ to the world.
ReplyDeleteIt takes you far to many words and far to much scrutiny to discredit these individuals, it is simpler to acknowledge their fallibility. We know that many buildings will stand on the foundation of Christ. Each will be tested but all who stand on it will be saved. These are not false prophets, and if they are wrong, then they are wrong while abiding in Christ.
Kim Walker Smiths entire profession is worshipping Jesus and making His name famous, one that has been incredibly impactful in the lives of thousands, drawing people closer to God, thus being empowered by the Spirit to lead others to repentence. What are you contributing to the kingdom? your correction and rebuff are not enough, we are told to make disciples, not stand idly by and mock those that do.
You said, "I have seen ... all of them impassioned to spread the saving knowledge of Christ to the world. "
DeleteSincerity doesn't mean someone is spreading the truth. False teachers are just as sincere, if not more, about their error. Don't pay attention to what you see, but what God said. You don't like my words? Here are Peter's-
And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
Peter SAW the transfigured Jesus, yet he still relies on the Word as more sure. How is that for logic?
all of this is nonsense. They are preaching the gospel and being used by God to saved people and encourage them to live a holy live period, that what we are called to do. if you want to expose evilness in our society you could talk about singers like gaga or beyonce they are the ones who work for satan and go against God,leading people astray, dont jugde Gods people with this nonsense.
ReplyDeleteBryan, not all people who claim Jesus are of Jesus (Mt 7:23) and not all people who preach a gospel preach THE Gospel (2 Cor 11:4). It is unwise and undiscerning to believe that the only evildoers are outside the church (Acts 20:29; Mt 7:15).
DeleteSeriously, I have to ask myself why the same religious spirit manifests in every single person (that I've come across) that call themselves "Berean". As if they wear the badge with pride...even more pride than being called sons and daughters of God. Quite happy to diss brothers and sisters in Christ...in the interest of the "truth". You cast judgement and dispense apparently spiritual advice. But in essence you've so lost the freedom that Jesus set us free for. Jesus said we're the salt of the earth - we're meant to bring flavour to our life in Jesus. Let's live out Romans - where its the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. Away with condemnation! Its by our love that the world will know we are His disciples. Where is the love????
ReplyDeleteDiscernment IS love. Seriously, why would let someone go the way of Balaam? Where is THAT love?
Delete----
Though we are not to judge others in the condemnatory sense explained above, we are called to be discerning. We have a responsibility to distinguish good from evil and light from darkness (Isaiah 5:20). ... Once we have judged what is truth, we may then need to make a judgment concerning another person. This is not to say that we condemn that person. Rather, we judge the actions of the person and, accordingly, how we should relate with that person. If we judge a person to be a false prophet, based on the objective criteria of God's Word, we should not listen to his teachings.
Read more: http://www.compellingtruth.org/do-not-judge.html#ixzz2NkBWpDme
-------
According to your definition of "love" it is never to make a judgment of someone's teachings or whether to warn others about them. That is loss of freedom, and it is dangerous also
Elizabeth you are so wrong. Love means that you make a judgement and tell that person only if it is to make a stand because you care that their salvation is in danger. Teresa D.
DeleteAnnnnd...that is what I did. Same as pointing out false teaching and teachers-by name- occurs often in the New Testament.
DeleteElizabeth,the bible says to go to them in secret. Have you actually tried to sit down with Kim Walker?
DeleteAnonymous, on the topic of confronting public teachers privately, I believe the Matthew 18 verse is applied when a brother sins against *you*, in something personal. Not a public teaching regarding doctrine to the wider body.
DeleteThis explanation is from Critical Issues Commentary:
"The reason false teachers are dealt with publicly is that their teaching is public. One does not need two or three witnesses or a private meeting to determine if a public teaching is Biblical or not. Everyone who heard them knows what they believe and teach. At issue is whether the teaching is Biblical. False teaching damages the church, and it cannot be tolerated. Publicly proclaimed teachings can be judged to be false and should be publicly refuted. Paul did this. Paul told Timothy to do this. Paul gave all elders the responsibility to do this. The church must be warned about wolves when they arise, whether from inside the church or without. Likewise prophecy must be judged by the objective criteria of the Bible (1Corinthians 14:29; 1Thessalonians 5:21). "
And here is commentary on Titus 1 from Bible Gateway:
"The gravity of the situation is reflected in the two commands that Paul gives. First, Titus is to "silence" (literally, "stop the mouths") of the heretics (v. 11). This must mean to "take the wind out of their sails," or to take away the momentum they had established, by publicly correcting their false doctrines with the approved teaching of the apostle. Second, he is to rebuke [correct, reprove] them sharply (v. 13). The graphic adverb used only here and in 2 Corinthians 13:10 implies the use of force that is backed up by authority. Confronting false teaching calls for decisive, firm correction, for the church's ministry and the spiritual health of believers are at stake."
This is to all you "super christians":
ReplyDeleteNow concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 BUT IF ANYONE LOVES GOD, THIS ONE IS KNOWN BY HIM.
--1 Corinthians 8:1-3
Of course the devil dosen,t want the next generation to have a radical love for Jesus, love destroys unbelief, knowledge creates it. You "super christians" have turned yourselves into your own idols and forgot your first love. I can only pray that the next generation would be touched by this band and all that were accused.
Now prepare yourself like a man and I will question you, and you shall answer me. Do you "super christians" really want to challenge the supernatural mind of God? Do you want to limit His unlimited abilities to touch another persons life? Do you, indeed, know the mind of God? Oh Ye of little Faith....
All these accusations come from your fear of being overshadowed by these people, the Pharisees had the same fear of Jesus. Don't worry you will still have purpose, all these accusations will only strengthen the bonds of love within this movement.Here is some wise words From Gamaliel to his pharisee buddies:
(Acts 5:38-39... And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”)
So you are saying that we if we discern a false teaching and point it out, we think we are "super Christians" (whatever those are) but are also jealous of being overshadowed by others who aren't "super Christians" (whatever they are). I guess I don't really understand your comment.
DeleteHere are some scripts, I used the NLT hopefully you can understand what was meant in my comment????
DeleteHebrews 5:11-14 and 6:1-8
11 There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen. 12 You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food. 13 For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn’t know how to do what is right. 14 Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.
1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds[a] and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.
What's in your field????
Kim Walker encourages people to experience the love of God. How absolutely wonderful.
ReplyDeleteKim Walker encourages people to fall in love with a god that does not exist, is not revealed in scripture, and is a false Jesus. How absolutely tragic.
DeleteQuestion to you,if what you are saying about Kim Walker is true,how has that effected anyone ( beside you ) in a negative way,her main focus is God,will her dream throw people off track? will it disrupt there lives,what is it that you are trying to gain here,cause this is causing more division than her dream,you attacking her.She is not preaching another God,not even another Doctrine,her music and songs,are so inline wiht the word of God,there are so many false teachings out there that is clear and evedint that demands attention,so why focus on a dream that Kim had
DeleteAnonymous, that is a great question. What you're asking, essentially, is how does false teaching affect the body of believers?
Delete1. Paul said it spreads like gangrene. (2 Tim 2:17). Gangrene is a disease which incrementally but rapidly gradually enlarging its area, corrupting the flesh that was sound before. It literally chokes off the blood supply to the flesh. What Paul is saying is that false teaching kills where it appears. If left unaddressed, it kills the entire body.
2. Paul said that false teaching is like leaven (yeast). (Galatians 5:9; 1 Cor 5:6). If in whichever verse is being pointed to, the thing which is the evil yeast is tolerated (unchastity, or false doctrines)once tolerated in a Church, would be too likely to impregnate to the detriment of the entire church.
3. False teachers and teachings creep in unnoticed and harm the body. See what Jude says: "For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
This matters to the body! To you, to me, to everyone who believes. We are a body and one part affects the other.
In her vision, she preached another Jesus. You asked why don't I focus on the more "evident" false teachings? Because the bible says to false teachings are sly. False teachers come as
"Wolves in sheep's clothing"...(Matthew 7:15)
They "creep in unnoticed"...(Jude 1:4)
"false believers had infiltrated our ranks" (Galatians 2:4)
"They are the kind who worm their way into homes" (2 Tim 3:6)
"They will secretly introduce destructive heresies" (2 Peter 2:1)
Their work is sly and that is because Satan is sly (Genesis 3:1). And thereby, their damage is worse. Be on guard!
In this way, through her visions, Kim is preaching another Jesus. Here is an essay that shows why-
http://www.gty.org/blog/B121018
I do agree with your assessment of the false vision Kim Walker has apparently seen and I certainly agree that we must be careful not to be snared with false ideas and must test these things using the Bible.
ReplyDeleteIt almost seems as though you regard all dreams and visions experienced these days as being false. I would agree with your skepticism. However, I would like to remind you of Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17-18 which seem to be telling us that in the last days, Christians will be given visions and dreams. Am I missing something here, or perhaps somehow viewing this scripture out of context in some way?
Hi Chris Grams,
DeleteThank you very much for your question. I'll do my best to answer.
I DO believe that just visions and dreams these days are false. Theopedia defines cessationism--
"Cessationism, in Christian theology, is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, tongues, and prophetic revelation, pertained to the apostolic era only, served a purpose that was unique to establishing the early church, and passed away before the canon of Scripture was closed (comp. 1 Cor. 13:8-12 with Heb. 2:3-4)."
MacArthur explains, "Most Biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history, the days of Moses and Joshua, during the ministries of Elijah and Elisha and thirdly, in the time of Christ and the apostles."
(Miracles includes visions and dreams.)
And we saw the miracles and visions during Christ's walk on earth and immediately afterward. As a matter of fact, afterward during the period when the church foundation was being laid by the Apostles, they needed visions because the new revelation wasn't written yet. So we had Peter hearing directly from the Spirit about Ananias and Sapphira, Cornelius's vision, Ananias at Straight Street, Paul on the road to Damascus,
But those were just a pre-fulfillment of Joel. How do we know this? Because Joel said "in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh." Has God poured out His spirit on all flesh? No. Was the sun was darkened, the moon turned to blood? No. That will not happen till the Day of the Lord, Millennium and then eternity.
How do we reconcile cessationism verse in light of Acts/Joel? Read here-
http://bible.org/question/how-does-one-support-cessationism-light-acts-217
And here is a sermon explaining Pentecost here
"Explaining Pentecost"
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1705/peters-sermon--explaining-pentecost
We don't need visions today because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to illuminate it for us. If God spoke personally to a person we would have to accept their vision as authoritative, JUST as authoritative as His word in the bible, and His word to former prophets like Jeremiah,and then there would be chaos. Most of today's visions and dreams conflict with each other. Most of the conflict with the bible.
The short answer to your question is Acts was a partial fulfillment of Joel, the purpose of the dreams and visions of the first century Apostles and others was to aid in laying the foundation of the church, when the foundation was laid (canon completed by John's Revelation) then dreams and visions (and tongues and prophecies) ceased- as per verses above, and fulfillment will resume in Tribulation, Millennium & eternity
Thank you for taking the time to help me find answers to my questions. These are questions I have been struggling with for a very long time, partly due to some personal experiences.
DeleteAs a child, I had a seemingly very realistic dream where I was in a strange house out in the country somewhere. In this dream, the house appeared to be in disarray as though someone were moving into the house. Several years later, my family and I moved from the city into a house on an acreage. I had not seen this property prior to moving in, so I was amazed when, while moving in, the very scene I had dreamed of years earlier played out before my eyes, every detail exactly the same.
As a young Christian at the time, I believed my experience was from God, though it seemed to lack any specific message. Although this isn't foundational to my faith, I had somehow included it with the rest of my beliefs and considered dreams as possible dreams from God. Lately I've been praying for wisdom in this matter and have wondered if my dreams are from God, or possibly are some form of spiritual attack meant to throw off my focus. I would really appreciate your prayers and insights into this particular situation.
Thanks Chris. You're very well spoken and clear. I especially liked your thought that the dream was so clear but lacking a specific message may just be from another source to throw us off focus. Very wise to wonder this. Sure, on the prayers. As for insights, let me ponder for a while.
DeleteThanks for the prayers and the consideration. I will patiently await your own thoughts as I study and pray over the matter myself. :-)
DeleteHi Chris,
DeletePrayer is the first and best start.
At GotQuestions, the question of "Are our dreams from God? is partially answered thus:
"If you have a dream and feel that perhaps God gave it to you, prayerfully examine the Word of God and make sure your dream is in agreement with Scripture. If so, prayerfully consider what God would have you do in response to your dream (James 1:5). In Scripture, whenever anyone experienced a dream from God, God always made the meaning of the dream clear, whether directly to the person, through an angel, or through a messenger (Genesis 40:5-11; Daniel 2:45, 4:19). When God speaks to us, He makes sure His message is clearly understood."
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-dream-interpretation.html#ixzz2OS7J51GE
I posted that part of the essay because I agree that in the bible, when a person received a dream, the person knew it was from God and they knew what to do, or knew the message's meaning.
As for my own opinion, only you and God can know if the dream was from Him, but *even if* (and that is a big IF) then Peter said that we have a more sure word of prophecy. He was saying that the word is more sure, because speaking pf personal experiences such as dreams and visions points people away from scripture; and also dreams tend to puff people up (Colossians 2:18), so if you determine through prayer that it was from God, it's best to stay private about it, in my opinion.
These days are fraught with such falsity, the dream could be false, or if it was real then people tend to seek after signs and wonders and you could get real popular before you know it, another kind of danger for them and for you.
Not the least of our considerations on this matter are the bible's dire warnings against false prophets and dreamers. Here is one-
“My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord God” (Ezek 13:9).
Be in prayer and seek wisdom and clarity from the Lord.
Thank you for the wise advice. I agree, prayer is the first and best start to any study.
DeleteI'm becoming convinced that this was false. No real message was given and it primarily caused confusion in me as I attempted to decypher meaning. As you say, when God speaks to us, He makes sure His message is clearly understood. The intent of the dream and its message remained perfectly unclear until I considered it as a false message made to throw off my focus.
I believe God is giving me the answer, but I will continue to seek God's wisdom and clarity to confirm this answer.
Hey Chris, I would love to discuss this with you, and shed some insight as well. Please email me at AbsoluteFaith1111@yahoo.com God Bless you Brother!
DeleteHi Elizabeth, I must say I was disappointed and sad in reading your posts . I have been a big follower of Kim Walker and loved the way she worshipped and sung her songs. I am part of the worship team at my own church and although we don't really sing much JC songs I have always tried to push her songs to our team to sing lol...For me personally I have felt many times whilst listening to their music I have had chains broken from me where I was literally on the floor weeping. I guess im wanting to know now is was what I experienced false? It definitely didnt feel false at the time, and should I keep listening to their music as I was about to buy her latest album? I do agree with her name hyphened thing I thought it strange she didnt take her husbands name only as to me that is a huge part of being one with your husband, I thought it was just me being traditional though lol...I also remember watching a sermon on her one time and not once did she reference to scripture (also thought strange) and yes I have read her blog on the website and I too thought it strange again that she doesn't have Worshipping Jesus or anything as her pastime being a worship leader and all. As a singer one of my fav past times is to just sing love songs and worship songs to Jesus cause I love him so much. I don't want judge Kim or anything like that, Lord knows I am far from perfect but thank you for enlightening me on JC I guess I will be more aware now. I have always told God all I want is the truth and he has really given me alot of truth in the past few months about things. I will be praying about these things and reading my scripture. Buy yea just wondering should I be chucking away all my JC Cd's? If Jesus has authority over everything can he even use a Jesus Culture CD to change lives or does it not work like that?
ReplyDeleteHi Terri,
DeleteI understand completely. I quake at the thought of God uncovering the falsity a person we have admired.
Terri, you asked,
"For me personally I have felt many times whilst listening to their music I have had chains broken from me where I was literally on the floor weeping. I guess im wanting to know now is was what I experienced false?"
And I have to say it is hard to know. What you experienced was definitely emotional. The music was definitely the catalyst. But worshipping Jesus is not just about what we feel. Actually, very little of it what we feel. It's what we know and what we believe about Him that counts.
I get the same emotional feeling when I watch the Princess Bride. Like a release of emotion and a rush like chains falling down...was what I was feeling then false? No. Our feelings are real but are they as solid as the word, being illuminated by the Holy Spirit to a deeper understanding? No, it's just emotion and emotion can come from many sources- the Spirit, the flesh or satan. That is why we do not rely on it. And remember, music is a powerful manipulator of emotion.
When you say you 'thought it strange' about the website, the sermon, and her name, that is the Spirit raising the alarm to be more aware of what is going on. If you have a little niggling feeling that something is off, it probably is. I liken it to what counselors teach to kids at school about 'good touch- bad touch'. If it feels wrong, it is. or at least, it is the starting point for prayerfully delving deeper.
I'm so proud that you have been asking Jesus for truth. I see you are finding it in the bible, that is where His authoritative speaking is. He will deliver wisdom to you without reproach, if you ask. (James 1:5). But He is not going to plop it into our head by osmosis, it has to come from the bible. Music can stir us, remind us of the great doctrines (not so much the contemporary songs but the hymns) but it is the word that illuminates. That is where the authority is. And you have been reading your scripture, so that is fantastic!!!
Your last question, Can Jesus use a JC CD to change lives? Well first, He is not changing lives but changing souls. Lives change as a result but that is not the reason He came. Technically, He *can* use it, but it is not a matter of if He can. It is a matter of what He has promised. This is how a woman named Sunny Shell answered that same question regarding the bible miniseries on History Channel.
Q. "...can't God use anything to save someone?
A. No, I don't think this movie is a great way to reveal the truth about God since it's filled with lies about God. And yes, I realize God can use anything to save someone, but He only chose to use the message of the true Gospel to save all men (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). Nowhere in Scripture does God command or allow His children to use the work of Satan to proclaim His truth. And God is clear, anyone who denies Him and defiles His holy character or word, works for the devil, not for God."
As we go thru our Christian lives, we make decisions about what to listen to, which preacher to submit to, what movies to watch etc. Always ask the question in a worship setting, does it exalt Jesus, or if a cultural event, does it edify me to be in this situation. If He was sitting right next to you listening to the CD, (which He is) would He approve? As I grow, I periodically go thru my bookcase and purge the authors I've discovered are false. I've given away most of my secular music. I won't listen to people sing about Jesus who lie about Him when they speak. Your decisions are up to you, you and Jesus via prayer. Let Him grow you in discernment, and ask for that in your prayers. He makes it easy, His yoke is light (Mt 11:30)
Thank you for all of the above information and teaching. A very big eye opener for me, As much as I admired and looked up to Kim walker and Jesus Culture my first priority is the truth in Jesus Christ. Ive been a christian a few years but I am learning so much still and continually growing my relationship with Jesus as I go on. Thank you for your truth it must be hard having to put up this type of stuff as you would get alot of backlash from it I would imagine. All we can do is pray for Kim walker-Smith and Jesus Culture that they will see the error in their ways and truly repent as they are leading so many people.
Deletethe only falsehood idea i see is your own these people have a love for god that you people would not understand how dare you judge them for thier love of christ the fruit of what they are doing is bringing them to christ how dare you judge them like the pharisee did to jesus christ you are the ones that will be called to account for your actions against your fellow christians not them
ReplyDeleteHello Kerry,
DeleteFervency does not equal salvation. Even the demons believe- and tremble (James 2:19). Actually, they are further along than the Gnostics, because with their alleged experiences of 'hanging out' with Jesus, they don't even tremble!
Simon the Magician SAID he loved God, even followed Philip for a long time, fooling even Philip, who had baptised Simon! (Acts 8:1-25)
I am NOT judging them like Jesus judged the Pharisees. Judgment to the eternal fire only belongs to Christ. However, I AM judging their doctrine, matching up what they say against the bible. That is something John definitely says to do-
"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”" ESV
The NLT says, "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.""
YOur condemnation of me urges me to judge by appearances, but that is not biblical. So, how does one judge righteously? But comparing what they say and do to scripture. We can detect fruit, the fruit of the Gnostics is bad, coming from a bad tree. Just because someone says they love Jesus, does not mean they do.
Paul called many to account, so did Peter, John,etc. Failing to hold so-called believers to the holy standard is unloving.
Here is an essay written by Pastor Paul which speaks to the issue. He begins it this way:
" Evil Becoming More Evil "
"Wouldn't it be great if we could just throw open our arms and embrace anyone and everyone who claimed to be Christian. It should be like that but most of us know it isn't. So many people who claim to be Christian are stating their family tradition and not their personal relationship with Jesus. They haven't a clue what it is to live in the Spirit or to have anything to do with God except when they are in some kind of trouble. Even then the name of Jesus is used more as an exclamation than a plea for help. ... This is vital for us so we do not allow ourselves to be enticed away by those who claim Jesus but don't live Jesus. Paul warned Timothy:"
But evil people who pretend to be what they are not will become worse than ever, as they fool others and are fooled themselves. (2 Timothy 3:13)
http://pastorpaulvbsblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/evil-becoming-more-evil.html
------------------
Heed the warnings in the bible. Don't fall for the notion that stating heresy IS the heresy. Honor Jesus by being a Berean and looking into these things.
Kerry Jones said:
DeleteYou hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Kerry, you misuse the scripture from Matthew 7:3, but in using it, you prove my point. The rest of the verse goes on to say-
Delete"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."
As I said before, using scripture, the command "Do not judge" doesn't prohibit all critical judgments. It's not that we don't ever point out untruth, but we first ensure that our own perspective is clean before we do so.
i have noticed that in biblical history the true prophets were rejected by the established religion also jesus was rejected the same so was luthor in the great reformation it seems to me that when god moves in a new way it is rejected by the established religion of the time and its the same here history just repeating itself its funny how how you also ignore the roman catholic and how they have mary mother of jesus as a god also but its ignored it seems to me you are the one caught up in the same error as established religion has always made you think you know better then god and when god moves you dont recognise it
DeleteI'm not sure what you mean by "God moves in a new way". God is the same today yesterday and forever. Hebrews 13:8
DeleteKerry, I have written about the false Catholic system several times, as recently as three days ago. All you need to do is to search the google box to check these things out.
Is everything you say about Kim true? Holy Spirit inspired? Who am I to judge your discernment? Who am I to judge the most intimate relationship man has with his creator? Who are we to presume we know the heart of anyone? You mentioned to another reader that if something felt "off" it probably is. I'm grieved to say, your entire article felt "off" to me. You have plenty of biblical knowledge, that's for sure. You're a clear communicator. And I truley belive our Father has gifted you and has plans to use you in mighty ways. Afterall, your name means "oath of God". I would have been ready to openly accept the revelation (if truly it is) found in your article Elizabeth, save for one thing. It didn't line up with Christ character. I fund missing: love, joy, forgivness, grace, mercy, humility, gentlness, peace and the focus to glorify our heavenly Father. Let unity and the spreading of the gospel be our motivation, not the desire to say "I'm right" Because Elizabeth, if you're right, you'll be nothing but the clashing of symbols to other believers whithout love. May our Merciful Savior continue to bless you with wisdom, truth, but above all else love for our brothers and sisters.
ReplyDeleteYou ask "Who am I to judge the most intimate relationship man has with his creator?" You're a Christian, commanded to make a righteous judgment. We are not to tolerate false doctrine. Tolerating it is UNloving. (Revelation 2:20). I love my brothers and sisters and I want them not to be swayed by false visions and lies from those who claim special revelation knowledge. I love them so much I speak these things so they may be warned. Because I love my brethren, why would I leave them on the train tracks with the train coming? If I didn't warn them that they were in danger, I'd be a hateful person.
ReplyDeleteIf judging a doctrine is unloving then Jesus is unloving. Of course that is not true, so don't equate the two. Jesus IS love but he is the Holy Judge too. He has many characteristics and in your list, you left off His Holiness, His wrath, and His hate for sin. "God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day." (Psalm 7:11).
After all, John who was informally called the Apostle of Love, said, "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”" (John 7:24)
Anonymous,
DeleteI offer to you the book of Jude. Here is a sermon from Jude called "Unveiling the Apostates" a book totally about defending the truth from those who would attack it from the inside. What does a person think "contending for the truth" looks like?
Paul said to Timothy, "Guard what has been entrusted to you." (1 Tim 6:20). The most catastrophic attacks that come against the truth come from those who claim to love and believe it. From the INSIDE.
http://www.gty.org/resources/audio-bible-study
What I have picked up from the article and the conversations is that you judge Mrs. Walker-Smith mainly based on a vision she had and the hyphen in her last name. You are accusing her of teaching heresies through the word of god and being a false prophet when the only thing she is guilty of is loving God and doing what he commands: making disciples of the people.
ReplyDeleteI am but a teenager, and for me the youth needs to know God and love him. Jesus culture focuses exactly on that: Helping the youth know and love God. So when you convince people to steer away from this good influence on the youth, you are condemning the future to a future of non believers and a future that doesn't know God or speaks against God.
You also say that all miracles that includes visions and prophesies ended when the bible was complete?? Daily miracles happen in peoples lives. It may not appear on a global basis, but on a personal level.
Mrs. Walker-Smith had a vision that she was cuddling with Jesus. What is so satanic about that? She doesn't live off it like a drug or an adrenaline junkie. It most probably just motivates her, gives her hope for the future. Jesus culture is all about the love for God and the love God has for us.
You claim to judge righteously, where is your proof?? are you not judging on appearances?
No. I am not judging on appearances. Yes. I am judging her vision. Why AREN'T you?!
DeleteThe question is, does God still give revelation? Did Kim have an interaction with the risen Jesus, King of the Universe? Did she have an extended conversation, a physical intimacy with hugging, and personal direction via the Savior's lips, in His presence out of this dimension? Because that is what she claims.
I say no.
As MacArthur says, "Scripture is a closed system of truth, complete, sufficient, and not to be added to (Rev 22:18–19). It contains all the spiritual truth God intended to reveal."
I do not believe her or others who claim to have had experiences that in effect re-open the closed canon. If you believe Mrs Smith, then you believe in progressive revelation, and that revelation is ongoing. So now you have to equate what she said, and what all others who claim to have seen, dreamt, or heard God or Jesus, as as highly inspired as scripture- and you have to then submit to it.
My "proof" is two fold. One: common sense. Two. The bible. (1 John 4:1; 1 Cor 14:29, 2 Pet 1:21, Rev 22:18–19).
I am sorry that you believe that a false vision is "motivational", and not the bible. To me, the bible is the only motivation for us all, because it is the voice of God spoken on the pages of holy writ. Jesus is our hope for the future, not ridiculous visions of a gumby Jesus, He is the hope He has once for all revealed himself - in His word. (Hebrews 1:1).
I very strongly dsiagree with you,I come from a community wear Islams are going out of there way to entice Christian woman and they made a statement and said they will turn the community into a Muslim commmunity and half of the woman they marry is Christian woman
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, it's easy to tell that a Muslim is false. It is not easy to tell that a Gnostic (Kim Smith) is false. You should watch for the sheep in wolves clothing, not the wolves.
ReplyDeleteSo are you actually saying that you are the only one that can spiritually discern false teachings,so what about the rest of us that spend time with God,so does God not reveal things to us as well,surely you have to be open to the fact that if we spend time in Gods presence and live a Blameless life,God would have revealed to us as well if she was presenting a false gospel,why are you so determined that you are right and nothing else matters
ReplyDelete--So are you actually saying that you are the only one that can spiritually discern false teachings,
ReplyDeleteNo.
--so what about the rest of us that spend time with God,so does God not reveal things to us as well,
Yes He does.
--surely you have to be open to the fact that if we spend time in Gods presence and live a Blameless life,
How does one spend time in His presence?
No one lives a blameless life. We are all sinners, even after justification. He has declared us blameless, but we will not live sinless until the glorification
--God would have revealed to us as well if she was presenting a false gospel,
Not necessarily. The way the Body works is that we all receive different gifts. (1 Cor 12:7)Some receive the gift of discernment, others helps, others teaching. Every Christian can discern, but for the ones with the spiritual gift, He installs in the faith as early warning systems, so to speak. Like a smoke alarm. You may see the fire (Muslims) whereas we see the smoke (sly doctrines). Paul, Jude, and Peter wrote to their flocks about falling under the sway of false teachers. Not everyone in the flock knew they were under a false teaching when it was happening. If they did, the Apostles/Leaders would not have had to write to everyone. They all would have known at the same time.
In addition, some in the Body are more mature than others, and others are less mature. (1 Cor 2:6, Heb 5:14, Col 1:28, James 1:4, Eph 4:1… and so on). We don’t all sanctify at the same rate. That is why we need each other so much!
--why are you so determined that you are right and nothing else matters
Why are you so determined to send multiple comments that impugn me personally and not address the scriptures? Why the vehement argument? Why are you so determined to prove me wrong instead of consulting the scriptures I offered? Please do not comment again until you’ve prayerfully had a chance to mull these things over. Methinks you doth protest too much, and that tells me the Spirit has grabbed you...or satan has. Take time to work it out by studying the word and engaging in some prayer, please.
All I'm going to say is I have worked with the folks from Passion. I've seen their hearts. And they love Jesus with everything in them. You are criticizing them publicly because you disagree with how they operate. But the point is, they love Him. And that is that.
ReplyDeleteI just thought you should know.
"They love Him" ...WHICH Him? (Matthew 7:22-23)
DeleteI refer you to this:
"Another Jesus: an example of defective Christology"
http://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2013/07/another-jesus-example-of-defective.html
In answer to your question "WHICH Him?"
DeleteSimply put - the one who died for them on the cross.
Mormons believe Jesus died for them on the cross. They are not saved.
DeleteRoman Catholics believe Jesus died form them on the cross. They are not saved.
MATTHEW 7:22-23!!
It is important not to have a defective Christology.
You didn't have enough time between comments to read about defective Christology, I encourage you to do so. It shows the difference between "Another Jesus" and "This Same Jesus".
Having just attended the Jesus Culture Conference in Los Angeles I would have to strongly disagree with your analysis of KWS and Jesus Culture. You state the following:
ReplyDelete"Outwardly the Jesus Culture songs appear to have a form of godliness via their lyrics, but they deny God's power by being sung from a heart that does not rest on the knowledge of this same Jesus we know through His word."
I find this so very ironic as the challenge that the Jesus Culture team issued to us at the conference is that we have a foundation based on the word. You can look up the 30 day Bible Challenge on the YouVersion Bible App that they encouraged everyone at the conference to take part in. Most of the conference was spent expressing how imperative it is that as Christians we are submerged in his word daily. KWS continually expresses how much Jesus loves us and how we should pursue HIM with all that we have. You can't really argue with that. Everytime I have ever heard Banning Liebscher (the executive director of JC) ever speak the first words out of his mouth are, "Open your Bibles to..." Also, KWS was a speaker at the conference and she frequently quoted and had us turn to scripture to support her message. You can try to discredit the JC team and KWS as much as you want to but you can not discredit the Bible that they encourage everyone within earshot to dive head first into nor can you discredit the love for Jesus that they constantly express. The fruit they bear in the name of Jesus speaks volumes more than your words ever could.
"We give you praise and all of the honor. You are our God, the one we live for. We give you praise, all of the glory, God." ..... Doesn't sound like a song that is the "work of Satan" to me.
Of course the false teachers will tell you to dive into the word. They aren't going to tell you to dive into the Koran.
Delete"Christians are not called to universal acceptance of anyone who claims to be a believer. Love must be discriminating." ~John MacArthur
Read 2 John. That is where his quote comes from, in the commentary introduction to 2 John which the theme is about not believing every false teacher that comes along.
I disagree, after justification, we are no longer sinners, and we live a blameless life, sure we can fall but saying we are still sinners after repentance no.
ReplyDeletePlease share the verses which support your (untrue) contention that we don't sin after we are justified. If you are right, then that means you never lie, you never have a critical thought, you obey Jesus perfectly, every day. You are 100% helpful and encouraging all the time. You never lose your temper with your kids.
ReplyDeleteHere is a good excerpt from an essay dealing with the topic of sin in the believer's life
If You're Born Again, Do You Still Sin?
One of the primary passages dealing with the believer's (that is, those who are saved) attitude and position on sin is 1 John. This epistle was written to first century Christians and addresses the concepts of sin, believers and nonbelievers. Verses 6 and 7 state "If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not know the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin." The above passage shows that those who are believers will not be in habitual sin - with the idea of walking in the darkness having a connotation of intentional, repetitive disobedience.
However, John follows these verses with "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Here, the apostle says that Christians who claim to be sin free are deceiving themselves and he calls into question their very salvation for making such a claim!
Read more: http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo015.asp#ixzz2aofwfH9M
Here is another good essay for you to understand this concept:
If we have died to sin, why do we still sin?
http://www.challies.com/reading-classics-together/if-we-have-died-to-sin-why-do-we-still-sin
So please understand that while the chains of habitual, trapping sin are broken, no, we are not perfected and not sinless until the glorification occurs.
Hi, I appreciate your righteous judgment about Kim Walker's personal experience with Jesus. It helps me to discern if the "spiritual experience" of a person truly comes from God but I'd like to ask about what you think in Acts 2:17-21. Because I do believe that God is still in the work of pouring out His spirit through visions and dreams.
ReplyDeleteI asked this because since a kid, I've encountered numerous dreams and visions about God and happenings before God's Second Coming. Also, I've actually heard the voice of God but I didn't see Him in my dreams. It's not that I'm boasting about these things, but could it be possibly that some of them came from God and some of them came from the devil? If so, how can I distinguish them?
I've also read from your previous replies that if one has experienced such thing, that person shouldn't say it as what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 12. I'd like to ask about the "thorns" that he suffered? What actually were these "thorns"?
I present my concerns not to disagree with your article but I'd like to gain more understanding with regards to this kind of spiritual experience or spiritual gift. Thank you very much and God bless. :)
Hello HanaKim,
DeleteThank you for a great question. It is a complicated and difficult one to answer. Certainly, theologians have explained this using many words. I will try my best and then refer you to some of those theologians.
The Acts verse about dreams and visions is Peter explaining that Joel's prophecy will come true. Joel was writing about the Day of the LORD.
Here is acts 2:16-21
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
So people take this part to heart: "sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" but do not take this part to heart:
"blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood,"
Has the sun been darkened? No. That means the former part of the verse isn't happening yet either, the dreams and visions part. And you're a woman, and that verse does not say the women shall have dreams and visions. Most people interpret that part to be Tribulation and/or Millennium events. In any case, the dreams and visions are still future.
The Holy Spirit inspired the writer of Hebrews to write in verse 1-2
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
Jesus spoke to us, first in His incarnation when He was on earth, and as the Word, He speaks/spoke through the bible.
So if you are having dreams and visions I'd say that comparing to scripture as above and in the links I offer you, you can tell whether they are from God or not because the scripture says that God is not speaking in that way today. So it is very likely the devil.
Satan counterfeits miracles, and he even put a vision before even the Lord Jesus Christ in the Temptation, Matthew 4:8, "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory."
So he can be very convincing. The guys at the Compelling Truth blog wrote: "Visions can be real and really false at the same time. Buddhism was heavily informed by a vision Siddhartha Gautama had while sitting in a trance. In the time since the Bible was compiled, many visions have directly contradicted Scripture. Islam, Mormonism, and the Unification Church were all begun by people who had a vision."
You can also go here to read a shorter article about how there are no new revelations from God. http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A233
Paul's thorn...no one is quite sure, there is no consensus on what Paul's thorn was exactly. We know since Paul went on in the verse (2 Corinthians 12:7) that a messenger of satan brought it. We also know why God allowed satan to bring it (to keep him from becoming conceited). That's pretty much all we know. It could have been a physical ailment, mental torments, or simply satanic hindrances during his missionary journeys, of which Paul encountered many (stoning, riots, shipwreck, whippings etc) Or all of the above. But we don't know for sure. When you get to heaven, you can ask him :)
Explaining Pentecost. Can read or watch the video of this sermon. It is part 3 but relates directly tot he verses you mentioned
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1705/peters-sermon--explaining-pentecost
Don't you think it's a waste of time focusing on arguments over theology when you should be reaching lost souls? I think the goal is to turn people towards Christ and not be the doctrine police. And who says you don't have the wrong interpretation? YOU could be a false prophet. Just sayin'.
ReplyDeleteNo. It is not a waste of time to discuss theology and doctrine. Theology comes from two Greek words, theos (God) and logos (word). From them we can understand that theology is the study of God which includes his attributes.
DeleteSound doctrine is important because our faith is based on a specific message. (more here, http://www.gotquestions.org/sound-doctrine.html)
So if we do not study God and we don't know His message, what good will it do to run out and reach lost souls? Reach lost souls with what? My opinion?
We are a body and if we all study diligently (be the 'doctrine police' to use your terms) then we know and help each other when someone starts going off on wring interpretations. We reel them back in, myself included. If you do not study doctrine and know God's message as delivered, how will you help one that is having a wrong interpretation? You can't. If you are NOT the doctrine police you are failing as a Christian- to yourself, to your brethren, and to the lost.
So true. thanks for your words.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that this brought Kim closer to God. She said she spends so much time with Him everyday and reads the bible. So how could this vision be false? I also found it strange how God shows Himself but how can we understand God? Also I think Kim didn't literally meant that 'she lives from encounter to encounter'. She reads the bible everyday. If she only relies on those 'encounters' with God she probably wouldn't rely on the bible that much. I can understand that she loves to have a vision because it's God showing His great love for us. I think that's why she said that. But this doesn't immediately mean she only lives for those encounters.
ReplyDeleteI've watched her long testimony and she's pointing at Jesus so obviously. The devil wouldn't praise Jesus so much right? Or would he? And why do you think God has send Jesus to this world to save us if He doesn't love us? I sort of read this in your post but what do you mean? I feel like she's right that we have to get back to Jesus because that's what we are made for, to love Him (and each other). This testimony made me realize I really lost this connection (or maybe didn't even had it in the first place). All my life I'm only searching and it's never enough. But I feel like God wants us back and maybe the truth is in Him.
Anonymous,
DeleteJust because someone mentions Jesus in their testimony does not automatically mean they are saved. Consider these two points:
1. Simon the Sorcerer seemed to be saved, saying and doing all the right things. Even Philip was fooled and baptised him (Acts 8:13). In a second case, Judas Iscariot lived with Jesus and the eleven apostles for years, and when Jesus said one will betray me, no one pointed to Judas. They had no clue he was false. This is because Judas said and did all the right things.
But in both cases, there came a time when what they said and what they did was at variance with faith. They exposed themselves by their actions and words.
2. Satan is crafty. (Gen 3:1). If he came on all full of hate and said 'don't pay attention to Jesus' then we would know it's satan behind it Satan's tactics, and we are not unaware of them, are we? (2 Cor 2:11) is to propose another Jesus. It is this different Jesus Kim is talking about, and talking to.
Of course she lives from encounter to encounter. She said so, didn't she? And that is what shallow, false faith is. Jesus said so (John 6:26). He said you follow Me because you want to get fed with fish and see the showy miracles.
But what happens when Kim fails to have an encounter? She will not have the word to fall back on. Because her faith does not rest on the word but on another Jesus who is a house of cards. We need to have faith in the Rock.
no, Jesus doesn't come to us in visions. The faith was delivered once for all, and God has spoken. It should be enough for us. I hope it is for you.
I saw Kim walker smith in san diego this past year, her and her team ushered in the presence of the Holy Spirit, like no other worship experience I've ever been in. I love , love, love her and Jesus Culture!
ReplyDeleteWow! So what you 'saw' trumps the bible! Experience matters! Not. /sarcasm.
DeleteAnonymous, if someone is saved, the Holy spirit is already present. No human "ushers Him in".
"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."" (Matthew 18:20)
The Spirit goes where He wants. You can't 'see' Him.
Jesus said, "The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”" John 3:8