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By Elizabeth Prata
I fell in love the way you fall asleep: slowly, and then all at once.”
― John Green, The Fault in Our Stars
Isn't that an evocative and a sweet description of how we fall asleep! I've always loved it.
Apostasy is like that. It shows up slowly, then all at once.
In Philemon 1:24, Paul called Demas a fellow worker. By 2 Timothy 4:10, Paul had declared him a friend of the world. There was approximately an 8-10 year span between the two verses.
Judas was never in the faith. For three and a half years, he followed Christ. But unknown to the disciples, Judas held secret sins in his heart, he stole from the group purse, he met with Pharisees...By the end, he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
Demas and Judas never abandoned the faith, because they never were in it in the first place.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19).
A tweet by Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore this week is causing dismay and consternation. I wrote about it here. Here is the tweet:
Beth Moore and also Christine Caine on her Facebook page, confirmed the partnership. The topic of the program series will be "unity," Moore tweeted. Meyer said on her own Facebook page that they haven't scheduled the programs for broadcast yet. But that the programs will be on soon.
Since Meyer is well-known heretic who teaches unorthodox and unbiblical doctrines, Moore's partnership on Meyer's program has disappointed many. Yet for others who have been sounding the alarm about Beth Moore for many years, (including myself) this comes as NO surprise. We are hopeful that at last, this will be the evidence your church needs to root out FALSE TEACHER Beth Moore from your church.
In Numbers 32:23 we read that our sin will find us out. Can any apostate keep their position hidden forever? Of course, Jesus knows all. He knew Judas was not of the faith, because Jesus sees the heart. He knows what is in a man. (John 2:24). But what about us, who cannot see the heart, but only the fruit?
Apostasy is a funny thing. It is like a chain that keeps lengthening. At which link does a person declare a false teacher false (if they are)?
No sensible person will declare a teacher false after only one link appears. That is not discernment, it is Pharisaical judgment. But how about after four links? It depends on the link. It depends on what they have said or done. If the teacher has said "Jesus never came in the flesh" then that's good enough, because the 2 John 1:7 declares that people who say that are deceivers and antichrists.
If a person declares that they do not believe in Jesus as the Resurrected Son of God, and are in fact an atheist, as the Christian metal band singer Tim "I was faking faith the whole time" Lambesis said recently, then one need not wait for more links in the chain in order to know they are false.
But what of Beth Moore, who has been on the forefront of the Christian scene teaching and preaching since 1994? At what point in the chain does one say, 'cut it off, I know she's false?' Some said it early and some say it late and others say it not at all.
As Justin Peters has said, a person can follow a false teacher - for a season. It stands to reason that a true teacher can teach a false doctrine for a season, too, but correct it. That is why we must be vigilant, but not hasty.
For me the final straw that broke the camel's back moment came in June 2013 when Moore claimed to have been visited by Jesus. Moore said he lifted her into another dimension to see the church as "He" sees it. Moore claimed that during that vision, "Jesus" told her "My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief". "Jesus" then told Moore to return and teach this new revelation to the church.
Jesus would never say His Bride is unbelieving. To be part of the Bride, one must believe. If one doesn't believe, they are not the Bride. Moore's supposed revelation is an internally contradictory statement. And since Jesus doesn't contradict Himself, it must be Moore who is false.
Others gave the benefit of the doubt for longer periods. And still other things that we could add to the pile of proof, links in the apostasy chain as it were, stayed mostly hidden. Unless one cared to look. I did.
When the Bible says to be vigilant (1 Peter 5:8, 1 Corinthians 16:13) it means be vigilant. Observant. Watchful. Once the alarm bell went off about Moore, I listened closely and I researched for evidence. This is so one can either confirm or exonerate.
For example, Non-profit tax returns are public. I read all of the tax returns from Moore's Living Proof Ministries, as far back as they were available, to 2000. That was how I discovered that Moore donated significant money to Lakewood Church as long ago as ten years.
Or when Moore made a statement that though she travels a lot, that she is a biblical wife and leaves Friday night and is home by Saturday afternoon, thus retaining her stay-at-home status, it hit me wrong. So I researched her schedule. I knew that she had many Living Proof conferences that year, and was on a book tour that year, spent time writing alone in a cabin in the woods, and did weekly TV shows. So I looked through her public calendar, pieced together the weekends, and found the truth was the opposite. But unless one did the research, one would not know she had told a falsehood.
Link by link I built my case.
So, when did Beth Moore’s apostasy show through? For me, early. Others, later. Still others do not have ears to hear, so they don't remain vigilant. They are not watchful. When does the tip of the iceberg of apostasy show above the surface?
Jude 1:4 says,
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Unnoticed...Yet at some point, they stumble, their sin shows. They are seen by the discerning. The discerning raise the alarm. Some don't see it. The wolf remains unnoticed still.
Was it in 1994 when she founded Living Proof Ministries and set herself as President, (and her husband as Vice-President) and claimed on her (2000) IRS tax form that she worked 50 hours a week, yet said in interviews she was a stay at home mom at the same time?
Was it in 2003 when she donated $1000 to Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Church, for “ministry support?”
Or in 2003 when she described writing her book “When Godly People do Ungodly Things” as having been taken over by a force which wrote the book FOR her? (a process known as automatic writing/channeling the occult/Spiritism)
Or in 2004 when she donated $34,429 to Joel Osteen’s church for “ministry support”?
Was it in 2005 when Moore claimed to have been visited by Jesus, who lifted her into another dimension to see the church through His eyes, at which time He told gave her new revelation- that, and I quote her quoting Jesus, “My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief”, and that Moore was to return to earth and teach this? (Jesus would NEVER say His Bride doesn’t believe, it is an internally contradictory statement!!)
Or in 2006 when Moore participated in a DVD program called “Be Still” and promoted the Catholic mystical practice of contemplative prayer?
Or in 2008, when her pop psychology tainted with faith conditions (legalism) began to show through, when she wrote for example, in her book Looking Up When Life Is Looking Down, that "I believe God has scheduled a time and a way for you to get out of our pit. You're going to need to show up for the appointment, though."
Or again in 2010 when Moore taught a passage from Hebrews in one of her studies and completely allegorized it, twisted it, and made it about ourselves, beginning an obvious pattern of Bible eisegesis?
Or in 2011 when Moore taught from Deuteronomy directly and blatantly allegorized the passage, twisted it, and made it about ourselves when the verse was clearly about God? (which she does with all her verses in all studies?) [Living Proof Conference, Charlotte NC]
Or in 2011 when her programs on Life Today with James Robison became more about “mistakes” and not sins, and more about pop psychology and earthly desires than honoring God and learning His word? When she says "I believe" more than "The Bible says"?
Or in 2012 when at the Georgia Passion conference when she led the youths in the Catholic Mystical practice of Lectio Divina and prayer walking?
Or perhaps 2013 when her language while teaching included much more of “God told me to teach you this” or “I heard God say to me” and taught from her own vain imaginings and visions than the word itself but called it ‘teaching the word’?
Or in 2013 when she praised Catholic Mystic Roma Downey and Word Faith prosperity teacher Victoria Osteen at Lakewood Church during women’s conferences they did together?
Or in 2014 when Moore said “God told her” that there will come an awakening and an outpouring, and that she and others who speak “the genuinely prophetic” will be called false, but not to believe them, the people (us) who will say she is false will be bullies?
Or finally in 2014, when she linked with heretic Joyce Meyer?
The Lord stationed guards in His church for a reason, these are the people the Spirit has endowed with the gift of discernment. Listen to them. Allow their warnings to prick your conscience and to start you on your own journey of research and diligence. Compare what you find tot he word of God Don't allow your friendship/love for/investment in this or that teacher to cloud your reasoning and decision.
Those of us with the gift of discernment who spot it early, it is often a mournful time. It's hard to be practically the only ones saying “watch out, so-and-s0 is false” not because we want everyone to see we’re right, but because we can see the wolves carrying off the lambs and the sheep! Because we want you to develop your own discernment skills!
It hurts to see women impacted negatively by false teachers. It is a grief to see them absorb and adopt the false hermeneutics teachers like Moore, Meyer and others teach, false approaches to the Bible that these women carry with them. It is a pattern of destruction that Moore embeds, which women then use as the filter to see God’s word and His attributes. The Spirit in His will gives gifts, one of them is discernment. If you have a discerning person in your church, please understand it is a gift from Jesus, not a harassment to torture you in your love for certain teachers.
Moore and Meyer are the two most followed and best selling women Bible ‘teachers’ in Christendom. In partnering, they have become the face of falsity for most women who claim to love Jesus. It is a dangerous time.
Discernment is a never-ending process. It is important to be vigilant! (1 Peter 5:8, 1 Corinthians 16:13)
Because of these verses:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Further Reading:
Here is a tremendous article from Dan Phillips, called Red Lights. He is referring to the red light warnings we can see in teachers or pastors who are not yet false but heading that way. He listed 24 of them, with scripture attached to each. Red Lights
I fell in love the way you fall asleep: slowly, and then all at once.”
― John Green, The Fault in Our Stars
Isn't that an evocative and a sweet description of how we fall asleep! I've always loved it.
Apostasy is like that. It shows up slowly, then all at once.
In Philemon 1:24, Paul called Demas a fellow worker. By 2 Timothy 4:10, Paul had declared him a friend of the world. There was approximately an 8-10 year span between the two verses.
Judas was never in the faith. For three and a half years, he followed Christ. But unknown to the disciples, Judas held secret sins in his heart, he stole from the group purse, he met with Pharisees...By the end, he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
Demas and Judas never abandoned the faith, because they never were in it in the first place.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19).
A tweet by Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore this week is causing dismay and consternation. I wrote about it here. Here is the tweet:
Beth Moore and also Christine Caine on her Facebook page, confirmed the partnership. The topic of the program series will be "unity," Moore tweeted. Meyer said on her own Facebook page that they haven't scheduled the programs for broadcast yet. But that the programs will be on soon.
 |
| From Christine Caine's Facebook page |
In Numbers 32:23 we read that our sin will find us out. Can any apostate keep their position hidden forever? Of course, Jesus knows all. He knew Judas was not of the faith, because Jesus sees the heart. He knows what is in a man. (John 2:24). But what about us, who cannot see the heart, but only the fruit?
Apostasy is a funny thing. It is like a chain that keeps lengthening. At which link does a person declare a false teacher false (if they are)?
 |
| Public Domain |
If a person declares that they do not believe in Jesus as the Resurrected Son of God, and are in fact an atheist, as the Christian metal band singer Tim "I was faking faith the whole time" Lambesis said recently, then one need not wait for more links in the chain in order to know they are false.
But what of Beth Moore, who has been on the forefront of the Christian scene teaching and preaching since 1994? At what point in the chain does one say, 'cut it off, I know she's false?' Some said it early and some say it late and others say it not at all.
As Justin Peters has said, a person can follow a false teacher - for a season. It stands to reason that a true teacher can teach a false doctrine for a season, too, but correct it. That is why we must be vigilant, but not hasty.
For me the final straw that broke the camel's back moment came in June 2013 when Moore claimed to have been visited by Jesus. Moore said he lifted her into another dimension to see the church as "He" sees it. Moore claimed that during that vision, "Jesus" told her "My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief". "Jesus" then told Moore to return and teach this new revelation to the church.
Jesus would never say His Bride is unbelieving. To be part of the Bride, one must believe. If one doesn't believe, they are not the Bride. Moore's supposed revelation is an internally contradictory statement. And since Jesus doesn't contradict Himself, it must be Moore who is false.
Others gave the benefit of the doubt for longer periods. And still other things that we could add to the pile of proof, links in the apostasy chain as it were, stayed mostly hidden. Unless one cared to look. I did.
When the Bible says to be vigilant (1 Peter 5:8, 1 Corinthians 16:13) it means be vigilant. Observant. Watchful. Once the alarm bell went off about Moore, I listened closely and I researched for evidence. This is so one can either confirm or exonerate.
For example, Non-profit tax returns are public. I read all of the tax returns from Moore's Living Proof Ministries, as far back as they were available, to 2000. That was how I discovered that Moore donated significant money to Lakewood Church as long ago as ten years.
Or when Moore made a statement that though she travels a lot, that she is a biblical wife and leaves Friday night and is home by Saturday afternoon, thus retaining her stay-at-home status, it hit me wrong. So I researched her schedule. I knew that she had many Living Proof conferences that year, and was on a book tour that year, spent time writing alone in a cabin in the woods, and did weekly TV shows. So I looked through her public calendar, pieced together the weekends, and found the truth was the opposite. But unless one did the research, one would not know she had told a falsehood.
Link by link I built my case.
So, when did Beth Moore’s apostasy show through? For me, early. Others, later. Still others do not have ears to hear, so they don't remain vigilant. They are not watchful. When does the tip of the iceberg of apostasy show above the surface?
Jude 1:4 says,
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Unnoticed...Yet at some point, they stumble, their sin shows. They are seen by the discerning. The discerning raise the alarm. Some don't see it. The wolf remains unnoticed still.
Was it in 1994 when she founded Living Proof Ministries and set herself as President, (and her husband as Vice-President) and claimed on her (2000) IRS tax form that she worked 50 hours a week, yet said in interviews she was a stay at home mom at the same time?
 |
| Source: Publicly available IRS tax return for tax year ending 5/2001 |
Or in 2003 when she described writing her book “When Godly People do Ungodly Things” as having been taken over by a force which wrote the book FOR her? (a process known as automatic writing/channeling the occult/Spiritism)
Or in 2004 when she donated $34,429 to Joel Osteen’s church for “ministry support”?
Was it in 2005 when Moore claimed to have been visited by Jesus, who lifted her into another dimension to see the church through His eyes, at which time He told gave her new revelation- that, and I quote her quoting Jesus, “My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief”, and that Moore was to return to earth and teach this? (Jesus would NEVER say His Bride doesn’t believe, it is an internally contradictory statement!!)
Or in 2006 when Moore participated in a DVD program called “Be Still” and promoted the Catholic mystical practice of contemplative prayer?
Or in 2008, when her pop psychology tainted with faith conditions (legalism) began to show through, when she wrote for example, in her book Looking Up When Life Is Looking Down, that "I believe God has scheduled a time and a way for you to get out of our pit. You're going to need to show up for the appointment, though."
Or again in 2010 when Moore taught a passage from Hebrews in one of her studies and completely allegorized it, twisted it, and made it about ourselves, beginning an obvious pattern of Bible eisegesis?
Or in 2011 when Moore taught from Deuteronomy directly and blatantly allegorized the passage, twisted it, and made it about ourselves when the verse was clearly about God? (which she does with all her verses in all studies?) [Living Proof Conference, Charlotte NC]
Or in 2011 when her programs on Life Today with James Robison became more about “mistakes” and not sins, and more about pop psychology and earthly desires than honoring God and learning His word? When she says "I believe" more than "The Bible says"?
Or in 2012 when at the Georgia Passion conference when she led the youths in the Catholic Mystical practice of Lectio Divina and prayer walking?
Or perhaps 2013 when her language while teaching included much more of “God told me to teach you this” or “I heard God say to me” and taught from her own vain imaginings and visions than the word itself but called it ‘teaching the word’?
Or in 2013 when she praised Catholic Mystic Roma Downey and Word Faith prosperity teacher Victoria Osteen at Lakewood Church during women’s conferences they did together?
Or in 2014 when Moore said “God told her” that there will come an awakening and an outpouring, and that she and others who speak “the genuinely prophetic” will be called false, but not to believe them, the people (us) who will say she is false will be bullies?
Or finally in 2014, when she linked with heretic Joyce Meyer?
The Lord stationed guards in His church for a reason, these are the people the Spirit has endowed with the gift of discernment. Listen to them. Allow their warnings to prick your conscience and to start you on your own journey of research and diligence. Compare what you find tot he word of God Don't allow your friendship/love for/investment in this or that teacher to cloud your reasoning and decision.
Those of us with the gift of discernment who spot it early, it is often a mournful time. It's hard to be practically the only ones saying “watch out, so-and-s0 is false” not because we want everyone to see we’re right, but because we can see the wolves carrying off the lambs and the sheep! Because we want you to develop your own discernment skills!
It hurts to see women impacted negatively by false teachers. It is a grief to see them absorb and adopt the false hermeneutics teachers like Moore, Meyer and others teach, false approaches to the Bible that these women carry with them. It is a pattern of destruction that Moore embeds, which women then use as the filter to see God’s word and His attributes. The Spirit in His will gives gifts, one of them is discernment. If you have a discerning person in your church, please understand it is a gift from Jesus, not a harassment to torture you in your love for certain teachers.
 |
| "Plate facing page 10, An Argosy of Fables" by Paul Bransom, New York: Frederick A. Stokes Company. 1921. Wiki CC |
Moore and Meyer are the two most followed and best selling women Bible ‘teachers’ in Christendom. In partnering, they have become the face of falsity for most women who claim to love Jesus. It is a dangerous time.
Discernment is a never-ending process. It is important to be vigilant! (1 Peter 5:8, 1 Corinthians 16:13)
Because of these verses:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Further Reading:
Here is a tremendous article from Dan Phillips, called Red Lights. He is referring to the red light warnings we can see in teachers or pastors who are not yet false but heading that way. He listed 24 of them, with scripture attached to each. Red Lights
As a leader of a women's bible study group, I know that I am going to be held accountable for what I allow or bring into my group. We have done many of the Beth Moore courses in the past, I found many truths in what she said, but there were a couple of times where something just didn't sit well in my spirit. I thought I was being critical and judgemental about someone who was spiritually more mature than myself. I was torn about what to do about requests for more of her teachings by my group. Then I realised the solution was simple: Study the WORD!!! We have taken books of the bible and started reading and discussing them. For those who have chosen to do the work and actually study God's word, there has been tremendous growth. No more being spoon fed other people's revelations!! Psalm 119 has become so precious to me as I finally understand what David meant about having a hunger and a love of the word of God. I choose to study and believe the bible, I take my cue's in life from the example of His Son Jesus, and I desire to be led by the Holy Spirit asking for forgiveness when I get it wrong or mess up. What freedom and peace there is in being free from the opinions and theologies of people!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you made my day! I'm so thrilled! I know, rather than a curriculum, why not study the bible directly!!! I wish more people thought as you did, and also were as conscientious about knowing the Lord will call teachers to account more strictly. Bless you!
DeleteThanks Elizabeth! I think more and more people will come to realise by the grace of God as I did, that it's the Bible that is the best, if not the only thing we should be studying. I don't know about where you live, but in South Africa I seem to be hearing the same message wherever I go: Get back to the word, know it and hide it in your heart! Without it you are going to battle to stand or even know what you are standing for in the face of all these false teachings and trials which are on the increase. Life is tough and getting tougher, I believe the Lord has begun His sifting process. Praise the Lord for the truth of His Word: Psalm 119:71 It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees.Tough times are either going to cause you to be offended with God and the lack of "prosperity" and smooth sailing in your life, or bring you to your knees in submission, repentance and a desire to intimately know Him through His Word and through His presence. Sorry! I know I'm going on a bit, but I really feel very passionate about what God is doing!!
DeleteAnonymous, how "coincidental." I just tonight was listening to a Beth Moore CD titled, "The Endless Benefits of Being Steeped in Scripture" Psalm 119
DeleteShe said exactly what you just said above, in your Aug. 19th post.
When I first heard Beth Moore in 2004, I didn't think she could be for real. Eleven years and all of her Bible studies later, I've only known one other individual who loved the Lord and His Word as much as her, my grad school professor at Columbia Graduate School of Bible and Missions, James Hatch. I don't think there's any problem using her material. She teaches grace, that is so needed by so many.
Debbie Don't confuse seeming passion or fervency with true Christianity. Many of the false teachers in the Bible seemed sincere. The photo above pictured with Joyce Meyer, a heretic, should at least give you pause to wonder if Moore actually does "love the Lord", never mind the many other proofs on this very page.
DeleteI'd suggest comparing her teaching with scripture (not going on emotion) in this link below. You will find essays written by myself, other women and men & pastors who have done the correct work of comparing her words to scripture , tested the spirits, and found Moore lacking. Debbie, look under her emotion to what she is teaching, and I pray you will see the truth.
http://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2014/07/all-beth-moore-critiques-here-in-one.html
Dear Elizabeth, I think Jesus is weeping right now. I was going to refute every point in your article, but I would rather you really pray and ask God if HE disapproves of Beth Moore (or Ravi Zacharia or John Piper or Billy Graham). I'm wondering if you've done her studies. Have you done Believing God? If so, you'd know that Jesus would most definitely say, "The bride of Christ in our generation is NEARLY paralyzed by unbelief."* She says right in the Intro she's not speaking of believing In Him. (The demons believe and shutter, yet they have no faith.)
DeleteI'm sure, at least I hope, your motives are pure, but I'm wondering if what bothers you is that these people believe slightly differently than you? I used to be very dogmatic, but have learned that simply because someone is not dispensational, cessationist, etc. they're not incorrectly interpreting Scripture? Do you really think we're going to get to heaven and God will say, "Thank God for John Macarthur and the Baptists who got EVERYTHING right! The rest were heretics!" Yeah, I don't either.
You are questioning whether Beth Moore loves the Lord because she is willing to speak to Joyce Meyers? Really?
I think we are far better off modeling Christ and teaching Scripture rather than splinter picking in others eyes.
*Believing God, p. 7
BTW, irrelevant, but I have a Master's degree in Bible, my late father was a pastor who had a doctorate in Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and I question everything! Beth Moore has never once given me pause.
Debbie, I HAVE watched the 10-part DVD series "Believing" God and wrote a review:
Deletehttp://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2008/05/beth-moore-revisited.html
Beth is a false teacher in the greatest degree. Personal Freedom Outreach Apologetics ministry has done 5 outstanding articles exposing Moore's teachings, written by top-notch biblical scholars.
http://www.pfo.org/bethmoore.html
There are top-notch scholars with numerous apologetics ministries who have denounced Moore, and yet you totally ignore all the proof of her poor teaching and instead attack the messengers.
1. DB said: "I'm wondering if you've done her studies"
DeleteYes. Three of them, and attended a Living Proof Conference, and read two of her books and watched her on Youtube.
2. DB said: "I was going to refute every point in your article"
And then you gave up because you discovered that you biblically can't. Right?
3. DB said: "I have a Master's degree in Bible, my late father was a pastor who had a doctorate in Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and I question everything! Beth Moore has never once given me pause."
That is a shame. Now *I* want to weep. (2 Tim 3:7)
4. DB said: "I think we are far better off modeling Christ"
Modeling Christ would include as He did in Matthew 23:15 telling false teachers that they are vipers and making sons of hell twice as bad as they are. Are you up for that?
5. I quote God's word, you quote Beth Moore. I believe my point is made
This topic brings this scripture to mind. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."Matthew 24:24 NASB
DeleteI have long known Joyce Meyer is a heretic. Thank you for the information on Beth Moore. Reading today of how she seems to support Hillary Clinton is enough for me to stay clear of her.
Anonymous- so glad to hear you are studying the Bible. I'm always amazed at how much I grow when studying God's word. I don't want to read someone else's opinion of God's word I want to know God.
DeleteWhat did she say that was so off? I love her. But she's not God. I know that. I'm a grown up with a brain and I am able to discern. Pray, pray, pray.
DeleteHi amelia!
DeletePraise God you are willing to look into the situation. That is music to my ears. I compiled a series of links that critique her studies. They are written by me, other women, and pastors/men. They address her legalism, emotionalism, twisting scripture, direct revelations, and lack of discernment as well as her teaching men and having spiritual partnerships and associations with heretics.
The list is here, scroll down to get to it.
https://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2014/07/all-beth-moore-critiques-here-in-one.html
Thank you for all the research you put into this! I wish more people would study the Word of God to receive their education rather than relying on a persons study of the Bible broken down. A couple years ago my husband and I left the church after we were tired of the false teaching we had been receiving for years. Now we study God's Word in our own home together with an interlinear Bible and no concordance. The Holy Spirit gives us discernment and will teach us if we just open God's Word. We have learned so much more in the last couple years than we have in the 30+ years in a church. Just when I start to think that we are alone in our practices God shows us there are many others just like us, today it was thru this post. Thank you!
DeleteI can't imagine Beth Moore answering rudely or sarcastically. Do you sell studies? Do you think Christians do not hear from God or have visions? I have not participated in a Beth Moore study for several years, but when I did,her work pointed me to Jesus and my Bible. Unless something has changed... These are strong critcisms from one who apparently also has a following and a huge responsibility as a teacher and model.
DeleteHi Anrea Louise,
Delete1. Beth Moore confronted a young 22 year old woman who had said in a 140 character tweet Beth Moore was a false teacher due to Moore's alleged direct revelations from "Jesus". Moore wrote an entire blog about it, she said it's witch hunting season and strongly alluded to the fact that since the tweeter was only 22 years old she did not have the wit or intelligence to formulate such an assessment. It is outlined in chronological fashion here from the 1st tweet, to Moore's blog to the email conversation between the two woman after. Moore was rude in using and abusing her position to attack the young woman. As a Titus 2 elder woman Moore should have been patient and also should have looked into whether the young woman had any grounds to say Moore's direct revelations were bogus. It's all here
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/01/12/beth-moore-confronts-young-pastors-wife-for-criticizing-her-direct-divine-revelation/
I do not sell studies.
Christian do not at the present age have visions or hear from Jesus. The written word is sufficient and the canon is closed. (Rev 22:18-19).
False teachers always point to the Bible. If they pointed to the Koran you'd know right away they were false. All the false teachers in the New Testament used real scripture but overlaid it with the false. They point to "Jesus" but a different Jesus. They point to a gospel, but a different gospel. (Acts 1:11, Galatians 1:6).
Moore does have a huge following. A huge following is no indicator of whether they are teaching correctly. As a matter of fact, the bigger the clamor for a particular teacher, the more likely it is they are false. (Luke 6:26, 2 Tim 4:3).
These are strong criticisms. I put together ALL the criticism I could find of Moore and the various aspects of her false teaching and why they are false. They are written by me, other women, and men/pastors. I invite you to look further into why Moore is a heretic.
https://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2014/07/all-beth-moore-critiques-here-in-one.html
I have thought and said for a couple of years now, that all we and churches are doing when we book these type of teachers is pave their pockets with money so they can go by a new expensive outfit to wear at their next study. I have heard alot of negative on Meyer but this is the first on Moore. I am heartbroken because there are alot of women who think real highly of her. as for me, she talks too fast so as to get you in her mind set. They both say a little of the right stuff to get you in then that's when you have to watch what they say.
DeleteElizabeth,
ReplyDeleteYou. Nailed. It.
How on earth did you think to dig up BMs tax records? Wow, that was a telling piece of evidence. Where someone's money goes is a strong indicator of their heart.
Your natural attention to detail, combined with the supernatural gift of discernment from the Holy Spirit, is HUGE a blessing for all of us. The Lord is sure using you! :)
Though, I believe Rick Warren is a more fitting candidate as "the would-be-pope" of the SBC. Moore may have a strong influence on the women, but Warren has captured the hearts of countless pastors, and has caused far more corruption and division in the church on a far grander scale. Needless to say, there are lots o "links" in Warren's chain, too... and God is "outing" him more and more clearly these days... while the church still presses foolishly on with his Purposefully Deceptive 'church growth' plan... but I digress.
Is this partnership of Moore with Meyer the final link that will open so many believers' sleepy, undiscerning eyes? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. Sorry, I guess I'm jaded by seeing so many believers, including pastors, continually defend false teachers like Warren, Hybels, Driscoll, Moore, etc, even after they see the evidence.
Which brings me to your comment:
"Those of us with the gift of discernment who spot it early, it is often a mournful time. It's hard to be practically the only ones saying “watch out, Moore is false” not because we want everyone to see we’re right, but because we can see the wolves carrying off the lambs and the sheep!"
My husband and I both have been given very sharp discernment by the Lord, and have been as you said above, "practically the only ones" giving warning of these false teachers... like you, for years now. We have been disregarded and mistreated over and over by Christian friends, and even the pastors to whom we have gently but firmly brought our concerns. Though I know discernment is a gift from the Lord to edify the church, few seem to be listening. So that is tremendously discouraging for us.
Discernment seems to be the most unwanted gift of the Holy Spirit.
Well done here, today, Elizabeth.
-Carolyn
Hi Carolyn,
DeleteAs a former investigative journalist, covering small town councils and school boards, keeping track of the money, was job #1, The phrase "Follow the money" you hear on police and law tv shows is very true.
On Moore's tax records I wanted to see the officers of the company, the compensation, the hours spent, the donations, and the overall growth of the company over time.
It was interesting. On one video interview I watche dof Beth, she said her husband Keith has no part in the company (ministry). She was saying that as if it was a good thing, but it is really a bad thing. But first I wanted to check. I saw indeed, Moore's hours were 50/week andKeith's were 8/week (I think). She was President and he was Vice-president. He took no compensation. So what she said was true. HOWEVER, the wife is supposed to be led by the man in ministry. If her non-profit was a ministry as she claimed on her IRS forms, the man needed biblically to be very involved so he could rightly make decisions and lead his wife. If it wasn't a ministry but was a company, then why was she taking the lead role, in that case she would be be leading a feminist lifestyle. Either way, it was a #fail.
THAT was what I wanted to check, and it was what I meant in an essay last year when I wrote about the 'secret feminists'. Women taking a forward role who in secular life would be called career women and feminists, usurping their husbands at home -but in Christian life since it is a "ministry" somehow it has become OK, cool, and even expected. NO! A woman's life has to match up with the bible, in living it AND in teaching from it.
Investigative journalist, that explains it. :)
DeleteWhile I reject Moore as a teacher, I do have a question about your view on Moore running her own ministry. You seem to be saying that whether it's a ministry or a company, Moore cannot run her own business? Am I correct in understanding you? Do you believe it's sinful for a woman to run her own business or her own ministry, even if she has her husband's permission? I would appreciate you further explaining your position. Thanks.
-Carolyn
That's a good question, Carolyn, thank you for asking. I’d be happy to clarify. I’ll answer in two parts, one “in general” and the second part specific to Moore.
DeleteI would never say “A Christian woman CAN’T run her own business” Nor would I say “A Christian woman SHOULDN’T run her own business” because the bible doesn’t expressly allow or forbid it. So, absent a specific verse to apply to the situation, I’ll look at what the general concepts about female leadership are. For that, once again John MacArthur spoke eloquently to the concept of female leadership in the secular world.
(After reading Genesis 1:26), “God created man initially to rule over everything in His world. He gave him dominion. Man is king of the earth. Throughout the history of humankind, men have ruled the world. They have run the governments. They have run the businesses. They have run the economics. They have run the education. They have run the social aspect. Men have been the ones in charge, because God originally invested within them dominion. Man then becomes--and I don't mean generic man, I mean sexually male man, just the maleness of man.”
In the bible, women have been in leadership positions. Many point to Queen Esther, but she had no authority, she was adornment only. Many point to Queen Jezebel, but she was evil. Many point to Judge /Captain Deborah, but her position of legal and military leadership was to shame the men (Isaiah 3:12, Judges 4:9).
In general, God’s plan was that men run things. In my opinion, this also means companies and ministries (incorporated ministries).
MacArthur continued: “I believe that we need to abide by these principles. We do not conceive of women as anything less than men. Quite the contrary. Women are in every sense equal to men. In every sense there is equality there except in the area of the assignment of a role or a duty within the framework of society. I feel, too, that when we put women in responsibilities or when women usurp responsibilities meant for men they thus misuse their divine design and forfeit the use of their highest capacity.”
This is my opinion also.
Next, let’s look at Beth Moore. In order to make my point I always use the TOTALITY of her situation. I would not say “Beth Moore should not run her company Living Proof because she is a woman". However, let’s look at what her life says about her attitude and how closely she sticks to the bible.
She has claimed to be a stay-at-home mom, where LPM does not interfere with her wifely duty of child raising and home keeping. This is not true. On the one hand she claims biblical adherence to the verses for a Godly wife and mother, and on the IRS form she claims 50 hours/week, tv appearances, book tours, sequestered cabin writing and more.
So you see the totality of her particular situation, doesn't match up. The facts differ from the bible's general principles for a woman to behave.
Now let's look at the opposite. Beth Moore might have said she began the ministry and worked at it because her children were away at boarding school. Or they are older. But they weren't, they were small. She may be surprised at how it was growing. She and her husband may have prayerfully decided he will leave his job and oversee his wife. He may edit her curricula for theological accuracy, and the same with her books. He may accompany her to interviews and book tours. He may be intimately involved with the ministry as an Ephesians husband. That would be great.
Keith Moore by example and by Beth's own statement has nothing to do with the ministry. Is it wise for a man to have NOTHING to do with his wife’s biblical ministry? Are Christian married women supposed to “go it alone”? No. Is it wise for the wife to be the President of a company and deliberately set her husband as second in command? No.
As it is, I echo Pastor Mike Abendroth, "Where is Beth Moore's Husband?"
(video, 90 sec). www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLU1wR3Rzg8
Thank you for your clarification. I appreciate that you are not dogmatic that a Christian woman cannot/shouldn't run her own business. The family is its own government, so to speak, with the husband as head, and each believing family has the ability to make their own decisions before the Lord. While applying Biblical truth to one's household, there is no set in stone way a Christian family must live. Of course, as you said, no Christian wife is to "go it alone"... but neither should a husband. Male headship does not mean autonomy for the husband, either.
DeleteAs far as Moore's is concerned, I agree, the *totality* of what is going on with her - especially her false teachings and her frequent yoking with heretics (including financially to Osteen) - is of great concern, and does now warrant the warning that believers should "mark and avoid" her.
As far as Moore's 50+ hours per week in ministry, vs her claim to be a SAHM, while I agree that there is a definite discontinuity there, to be fair, Christian men can and do also abdicate their family responsibilities for the sake of "ministry".
As far as what Teresa said below, sorry friend, but pointing out doctrinal error from and serious concerns about a well known teacher is not "slander" or "striving about words" or "causing division". It is applying godly discernment to vet out teachings and people that are dangerous to the flock. False teachers are the ones who are sowing division. The only way believers can unite is in the Truth, something from which Moore has visibly strayed.
-Carolyn
The Bible says, seek and you shall find! And find I did! I love it when that happens.
Deletehttp://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA115/what-should-a-wifes-priorities-be-can-she-work-outside-the-home
Just like the helpful commentary you found from MacA, I found this link to be an excellent explanation.
I guess why I've been pondering this issue so deeply: I do want to make sure I am not judging unrighteously in other believers' lives. We know of a missionary family, both the husband and wife are medical doctors. Their son, now grown, is not only a believer - and a bold evangelist - but also is a MD working with his parents. This mother, as a doctor, raised a very godly son, who apparently was so well influenced by his believing parents in both their faith and profession, that he literally followed in their footsteps. We enjoy their missionary updates, and are encouraged to see how God uses all three of them, in their medical work, to reach souls for Christ.
As for Moore, false teaching is false teaching. Even if she only worked 5 hours/week at LPM, she's still teaching error.
Thank you for challenging me to think, Elizabeth! Iron sharpens iron.
-Carolyn
Was James really the brother of Jesus? That's what Beth Moore teaches.
DeleteYes James was the half-brother of Jesus. Matthew 13:55, 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
DeleteWhat should we learn from the life of James, the brother of Jesus?
https://gotquestions.org/life-James.html
False teachers don't teach 100% falsely. Some things they teach are true. That's what makes them cunning and dangerous.
I first encountered Moore in 2005 when one of the ladies at church asked me to look at Moore's 10-part DVD series, "Believing God." With all her claims of direct revelation, her ecumenicism, her horrid twisting of Scripture, and her pop psychology in that series, I declared her an unfit teacher. First experience was all I needed, and it was confirmed over and over throughout the years since.
ReplyDeleteEven worse was when I started my blog in the fall of 2007, Moore was one of the first people I addressed. The attacks I began getting demonstrated to me that Moore had a cult-like following, which is another good demonstration of a bad teacher.
Do you really think the attacks you got, because they were many, demonstrate that Beth is a bad teacher?
DeleteBlog about John Piper, Tim Keller, Andy Stanley & Francis Chan and I'm betting you'll also be attacked by their 'cult-like followers.'
Debbie, the attacks we receive when calling out a false teacher in and of themselves don't demonstrate anything particular, except that the people doing the attacking lack discernment AND are behaving in an unCHrislike manner.
DeleteBut on the other hand the fervency with which the false teachers gather together and as a unit, attack, is similar to the Pharisees and the way they behaved against Jesus and all the Apostles. People who are in sin and under bondage to the flesh will use any means to subdue Jesus' people and His truth.
As for Piper, Keller, Chan and Stanley, all 4 of those men are either false or on their way to apostasy. So I'd expect similar unChristlike defenses of those men, too. However, most discernment writers notice a peculiar fervency with the way Moore's followers both follow Moore (blindly in groupie-like manner) and attack those who rate Moore negatively (viciously, in packs). It's weird.
Other than Tim Keller (who I am not familiar with) I am surprised you list the other men - John Piper, Francis Chan, Andy Stanley (whom I've had questions about) - I have listened to them on occasion and found their preaching to be biblical. I must search out information on them.
DeleteThank you for beign diligent to search out information. Here is a very recent piece I wrote aobut Piper in which I include dmany links from other, matur emenand pastors who also have questions about his diescernment levels.
Deletehttps://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2016/10/john-piper-and-his-companions-of-fools.html
Here is something about Francis Chan from 2015. http://bereanresearch.org/reformed-pastor-francis-chan-to-speak-at-ihop-cult-again/
and something about Andy Stanley. It's from April of this year, and much more has happened to sound the alarm about Stanley in just the last two months. Good luck with your research, and thank you.
http://www.deliveredbygrace.com/andy-stanleys-problem-with-the-bible/
Hi. I am curious to know why you feel Tim Keller is a false teacher or on his way to apostasy? Could provide some support for this claim? Thanks in advance.
DeleteHi Diedre,
DeleteThank for your question. I appreciate it. I am hesitant to say Keller is false. However there are some concerning things with his teaching.
1. He promotes lectio divina and contemplative prayer (a Catholic exercise) as well as "The Way of the Monk", Catholic mystical activities.
https://5ptsalt.com/2011/03/08/5-reasons-to-be-cautious-with-tim-kellers-theology/ (I dont agree with all the things on this website but his bullet point list of concerning things about Keller is right on, with sources
2. He compromises on creation in support of the possibility of evolution (theistic evolution)
Source 1. http://creation.com/timothy-keller-response
Source 2. http://www.gty.org/blog/B150217/evangelical-syncretism-the-genesis-crisis
there are a few other things to the negative. Keller's recent book on prayer is getting very good reviews (doctrinally solid, they say). So while I believe Chan is further along, and Piper is mostly solid but with a huge concern about possessing zero discernment, I'd say Keller is less on his way, way less, but especially the theistic evolution is a concern.
Deidre:
DeleteHe teaches the social gospel.
Keller teamed with heretic T.D. Jakes at a prayer breakfast with President Obama, and Obama said these two were "extraordinary influences" in his life.
This statement was made at a forum in 2006: "Conservative churches say 'this world is not our home -- it's gonna burn up eventually and what really matters is saving souls... so evangelism and discipleship and saving souls is what's important'. And we try to say that it's the other way around almost. That the purpose of salvation is to renew creation. That this world is a good in itself. ... And if you see it that way, then the old paradigm if you're going to put your money and your time and your effort as a Christian into doing God's work in the world, you wanna save souls which means the only purpose of your ministry and your effort is to increase the tribe, increase the number of Christians. ..."
He teaches mysticism, including contemplative prayer and Lectio Divina. This video will give just a sample.
http://apprising.org/2012/06/15/tim-keller-teaching-roman-catholic-and-quaker-mysticism-to-his-rpc-leaders/
Keller teaches theistic evolution and has written for the heretical Biologos organization, and does not take Genesis to be fully literal (considers Gen.1 to be a poem), but rather teaches some bizarre explanations. He says that when "science" and the Bible conflict, we should always go with "science."
His book "The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness" is full of psychobabble.
A review of a book ABOUT Keller's teachings can be found here;
http://www.svchapel.org/resources/book-reviews/12-doctrine-and-theology/853-engaging-with-keller-thinking-through-the-theology-of-an-influential-evangelical-ed-by-iain-d-campbell-and-william-m-schweitzer-darington-england-evangelical-press-2013-240-pp-paper-14-39
Were you a lawyer in your "previous" imaginary life? You built your case well, that's what I mean. Beth, as attractive as she is, is as fake as a two-legged tripod.
ReplyDeleteCase closed, Elizabeth. Adjourned. For now. But don't leave town yet . . .
Stephen, Thank you. I agree. She is fake. I am waiting for some sin to come out, because there always is one. If the Lord calls me in the rapture, I'm leaving town- sorry! LOL
DeleteGlenn, I'm so glad you had discernment to know early on. I believe many people would have been helped by your and your wife's stance on Moore's falsity. I'm sure many others also who thought as you did back then would have been encouraged, too, knowing they were not alone.
I know this is really about Beth Moore, but I feel led to comment on Joyce Meyer. I used to watch her faithfully and found her teachings to be applicable. Then, when she changed the name of her ministry from Life in the Word to Enjoying Everyday Life, I began to see a shift in her teachings. While some of it was still based in God's word, some of it began to be what she believes, what God told her, a smattering of pop psychology, and some downright heretical statements. I stopped watching her, and it grieves me that some of my friends still hang on to her every word. I think it's telling, though, that I have some "spiritual" friends on Facebook who post blurbs from a wide variety of sources--New Age to Buddhism to pop psychology to Native American spirituality--and Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen often pop up. My thought is if a non-Christian can find something worth sharing from these two, then they are not rightly delivering God's word. --Linda
ReplyDeleteLinda, you get it; you are 100% correct. I'm impressed; please (continue to) be a shining light to your "spiritual" friends.
DeleteBlessings!
Teri, please let me know what you think was unfair in the piece.
ReplyDeleteIt would be unfair of me to know that Beth Moore was a false teacher and not tell you, and you end up deceived and destroyed. (2 Corinthians 11:13, Galatians 2:4)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
As Spurgeon said, "I would not give a penny for your love of the truth if it was not accompanied with a hearty hatred of error." ~C. H. Spurgeon"
I'm not in the least convinced that Beth Moore is a "sister in Christ." Nope.
ReplyDeleteJennifer, CA
Bookmarked.
ReplyDeleteIt bothers me that the words "contemplative prayer" and "prayer walking" are apparently caught up with connotations of spiritualist error. Going just by dictionary definition, there's nothing wrong with "contemplating" what's going on in your life and outside it so as to be thoughtful in how you pray to God. Specific rather than general intercessions is what that's about. And prayer walking -- again, just the words, for what they mean without any errant context -- isn't wrong. Its purpose is the same as the previous, thinking about what you're praying for, by focusing on something you see as the specified object of your prayer to God. It's to stimulate you to think about how to direct your prayers. Nothing more. Nothing *weird*. There's nothing that makes your prayers more powerful, effective, special, virtuous etc by walking by someone's house and praying for the resident.
It really irritates me that I'm going to have to wonder how to describe the good thing with different words, so as not to confuse others that I'm talking about the other thing. I used the word 'contemplative' in a text to a friend and they did so in return, but we both know that it only meant that we weren't offering up mindless incantations--the opposite, apparently, of what the spiritualists do when they subvert the use of the word "contemplative" for their purposes.
Ugh.
I think the distinction being made is CATHOLIC prayer walking. This is traditionally a 'labyrinth walk' where there are stages of 'opening oneself' to receive revelation and walking with a rosary, saying repetitive prayers. I think you're safe to "prayer walk" (and use the term!) in the context of praying to the One True God, the God of the Bible. :)
DeleteHi Jen,
DeleteThanks for the clarification. A strong Christian should be OK with prayer walking. However, like anything, it depends on the motivation and interpretation of the person doing the prayer walk. If the believe they HAVE to be closer to the location for prayers to "work", then that is incorrect.
I thought this article addressing the pros and cons, benefits and pitfalls of Prayer Walks was balanced and informative-
Question: "What is prayer walking? Is it biblical to go on a prayer walk?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-walking.html
Fantastic research. May I share on our blog and link back to you, Elizabeth?
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely! Thank you!
DeleteI have done many BM studies over the years, and enjoyed them. Recently though I have been wondering....and doing some "homework" about this. My friend and I were in her "James" study a little over a year ago. BM made a comment that my friend and I were very puzzled by. BM's daughter Melissa joined her mom and made contributions to this particular study. Beth told us in one of the videos for this study that her daughter called her one day and had just realized that "James was Jewish". She then asked her mom, "what are we going to DO about this?" My friend and I were shocked. Of course the brother of our Lord was Jewish. WHY would the Moores feel like they had to "do something about this"? I will never do another BM study, and am looking to go back into inductive study in the Word. Thank you for your very thorough research into this subject. Linda
ReplyDeleteHi Linda,
DeleteYou're welcome, and I'm glad your discernment radar picked up on that comment.
I read from Tim Challies that Jen Wilkin has some good studies, go to www.challies.com fmi. Also Justin Peters said Susan Heck is another good woman to study from. Kay Arthur is inductive. I've done her studies myself and I like them
Of course, there are many good men to study from too, which I prefer. Good luck and thanks for sharing yoru experience
Nancy Guthrie has some excellent work as well.
DeleteVery Interesting information!! Thanks so much. Is there anything wrong with the devotional Jesus Calling by Sarah Young?
DeleteYou are welcome. Thank you for reading. To answer your question about Sarah Young, yes, there is everything wrong with her. Avoid!
Deletehttp://www.challies.com/book-reviews/jesus-calling
http://www.solasisters.com/2014/12/sarah-youngs-bestseller-jesus-calling.html
Re. the Jewish question, Beth LOVES all things Jewish, often quotes from Christian Jews and her firstborn daughter even had a Jewish/Christian wedding although neither she nor her husband are Jewish.
DeleteMaybe you read too much into that one question by her daughter?
I am a bible believing christian and I love Beth Moore. She is doing her best and this is the best you can come up with in scrutinizing her decades of ministry? Thank goodness you don't see MY many mistakes and daily failures. Since when do Christian leaders (she is just a human being like you or me) need to be 100% perfect or labeled as a heretic? Get off your pedestal and pray for the woman if you are so concerned. I agree Meyer's had some questionable teaching but I still believe she is a genuine, great teacher. There is wiggle room to disagree on minor things. Beth Moore had a vision. Does God not still speak to his people? And under your strict scrutiny basically everyone (save Christ) would be labeled as wolves. The Bible (and the church) is made up of real, flawed people.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry you love Beth Moore. You need discernment. Now.
DeleteYou set up a straw man argument when you say people have to be either 100% perfect OR labeled as a heretic. Of course the church is composed of flawed people. Peter denied Christ three times. Of course some people appear to be "doing their best." It's not about the teacher it's about Jesus and His word. What about Him? His word and His Gospel needs to be given correctly so the people receive the message correctly. You dishonor Jesus by focusing on a 'let it go' attitude.
How about a High School Teacher, who is supposed to teach history but always gets the dates, nations, and geography wrong. "The Revolutionary war occurred in 1812 and was between Tonga and Greenland. America was the colony of Greenland, which was settled by Polynesians who wanted to conquer England." Would you let that go, especially if your son needed the class to graduate and get into college? Saying, 'Well that teacher has been in her position for decades, and sure she messes up the basic info so that kids leaving her class have a wrong view of history, but well, who am I to say anything negative. I'm not perfect either." Of course you would not say that. You EXPECT teachers to have a basic handle on the information they are tasked to teach. Same with bible teachers. Even MORE so, given it is God's word we are dealing with. G-O-D.
The bible says that teachers will be held more accountable than everyone else. This includes Beth Moore. The scripture which says this is at James 3:1
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."
The bible also says to test everything, hold on to the good (by contrast, dispense with the bad). Beth Moore saying Jesus appears to her in different dimensions and personally tells her things to turn around and teach to the brethren, or including Roman Catholics in the denominations of Protestantism, is NOT MINOR. She teaches a different gospel. This is deadly, not minor. Discussing whether Paul might have been married or if the lands of the earth were joined in one landmass at one point before Genesis 10, THOSE are minor things giving wiggle room. Again, you need discernment.
You said, "And under your strict scrutiny basically everyone (save Christ) would be labeled as wolves."
Yes I scrutinize teachers so as to not ingest poison and drift away from the faith. The Spirit is busy transforming my minds and why hinder Him by taking two steps forward then one step back every time I listen to Moore? Why compete with the Spirit in maturing us when we can cooperate with Him? The Bible tells us to be strict, vigilant 1 John 4:1 says " Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Many.
"The Bible (and the church) is made up of real, flawed people." Yes it is.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteAmen! We need more godly women with Holy Spirit discernment. Nothing new here. Men and women want the easy road and all its promises. Last time I checked, Jesus said to pick up the Cross and follow Him. Unfortunately, the gate is narrow that leads to life and wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction. These disciples of the false teacher are all entering the wide gate with Hell fire licking at their heels. When Truth exposes error you can expect the enemies of the Kingdom to fight back. And that's what false teachers and their followers are, enemies until they are reconciled to the Truth. To those who say this blogger is being hateful, why not read the letter of Jude and argue with him?
DeleteWhile I feel horrible for the lost, what will be the horror of those intentionally leading them there? ( Shuddering)
I am so glad that someone is willing to expose Beth Moore's erroneous teachings. It amazes me the way Lifeway shamelessly promotes her books and other materials. Frankly, I don't believe she receives direct revelations from God or Jesus. There are women at my church who would criticize St. Paul in a heartbeat, but they would defend Beth Moore from at all costs.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteElizabeth PrataSeptember 1, 2014 at 9:02 PM
Hi Linda,
You're welcome, and I'm glad your discernment radar picked up on that comment.
I read from Tim Challies that Jen Wilkin has some good studies, go to www.challies.com fmi.
I am sure she means well, BUT...
Jen Wilkins has written a blog about Beth Moore and does not warn against her. At all. She also calls the Message a type of "bible commentary" in the beginning of her Sermon on the Mount study. I would just stick with studying the Bible. It seems dangerous lately to follow anyone.... Except for Jesus
Hi CHarlotte,
DeleteThanks for the comment. DO you have a link to the blog where Jen WIlkins wrote about Moore but id not warn> I'd be interested in reading that.
To your comment about being dangerous to follow anyone, does that mean God isn't raising up any good men or women any more? Or just that He isn't giving to any more discernment in order to be able to "test all things?" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
Here is the article you asked for
Deletehttp://jenwilkin.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-next-beth-moore.html?m=1
I may have exaggerated about not following anyone at all. We just have to be careful about who we follow and we do need to test all things and thank God for and continue to ask for discernment
thanks so much for getting that link Charlotte. I read it. One can only hope that Ms Wilkin's discernment has been strengthened over the last three years since she published it.
DeleteNotwithstanding, several of her studies have been reviewed positively by people I trust so again, I hope that her momentary wobble was just that. As you said and I agree, we need to test all things through the God-given discernment we receive and exercise. Heb. 5:13-14
I have really enjoyed the two studies I have done with Martha Peace. Damsels in Distress and The Excellent Wife. I found them to be a great tool to help minister to the younger women(some were older) as we are commanded in Titus 2.
ReplyDeleteThanks very much Charlotte. I've heard good things about Martha Peace and based on the good reviews from credible sources, I've recommended her. I'm glad to have an affirmation from someone who has done her studies. It's helpful.
DeleteI heartily agree about Martha Peace. My wife and I have both read her book, "The Excellent Wife," and I've read a few other things by her. Have found her to be sound.
DeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I I believe Kay Arthur has also shared the stage with both Moore and Meyer.
ReplyDeleteNo you're absolutely right. To your point, and it's a good one, I'm grateful for the work of Michelle Lesley. She researched this issue and found inside information as to why Kay shared the stage with Moore and Shirer. So far as we can tell, they have not done that in the last 5 years since 2011. Here is specific information from Michelle's site written by Michelle, regarding your concern:
Delete"Ministry Partnerships and Associations:
This is the area that seems to be of most concern to the average Christian woman who is trying to decide whether or not to follow Kay Arthur."
https://michellelesleybooks.com/2016/02/05/perceptions-of-kay-arthur-and-precept-ministries-international/
A beautiful God friend &a prayer warrior wanted to introduce a new cd to our bible study. She loved this Beth Moore. I had never heard of her. The 1st cd was very unsettling! She said- don't you just love her?! I didn't but couldn't put my finger on it. I had started a book called- Facing Your Giants & found out there was a work book so asked if we could change to that. Something was very disturbing to me about her. Lately God has put in my spirit to research false prophets & that is how I found this article. I'm sending to my friend. I pray she is open to read it & I ask that you pray for her as well b/c she is an amazing warrior for God!
ReplyDeleteHi Unknown,
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading and passing along the article. FYI, I have a page containing all the critiques of Beth Moore written by me, by other women, or by solid men. It's here
https://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2014/07/all-beth-moore-critiques-here-in-one.html
I personally think one particular article is an especially good one for showing her falsity.
http://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2013/06/examining-beth-moores-statement-bride.html
From a few of the comments that I see here, there are those who almost regard her as some sort of goddess, with a direct link to God Himself. That in itself is a warning sign. She is good at selling herself and it is a lucrative career for her. I volunteered in a jail ministry and am still active...the women inmates can't get enough of Joyce Meyer but she and a few other wealthy "Christian" super stars would never ever ever donate any of their materials. Unlike others who are more than willing to donate to a needy population. That does it for me. What have they ever done in any way to give something of themselves without a profit?? The latest new is that Beth Moore is now supporting Hillary Clinton...yes, you know the one who mocks Conservative Christians and thinks removing an 8 1/2 month old baby from the womb is ok. People who become wealthy pretending to be preaching the gospel...make me physically ill. An Excellent book...is Embracing Obscurity by Anonymous. Why do we do what we do? Is it for Jesus Christ? Or is it for our own glory.?
ReplyDeleteHi Frances,
DeleteThanks for the heads up on Moore's comments regarding Trump's treatment of women. I had not known Moore had spoken up on a political topic. To my knowledge though, Moore has not said or done anything overtly supportive of Clinton.
Thank you for your work in a jail ministry. That's wonderful! wonder if you would consider changing your study material though? Joyce Meyer is a false teacher too. Let me know if you have questions about this.
Beth Moore has come out strongly against Trump, so most things I've read have people assuming that means she's on Clinton's side, and Breitbart even headlined that she "stands in the gap for Clinton." Just being against Trump, though, doesn't mean she is pro-Clinton. She may choose a 3rd party or not at all. But if she chooses Clinton, as people are suggesting, I'd be interested in knowing how she can justify doing so!
DeleteI'm uncertain about your "...changing your study material though" While there are Bible Studies with volunteers from the "Good News Jail and Prison Ministry" My task is the Christian Library book cart. We delivered the carts of Christian reading material to the pods on Wednesdays. The Bible studies are with different volunteers although we do get requests from the girls for material that was mentioned in those bible studies... Unfortunately, I had to quit the jail visitations because of health issues. I have Crohns and it's has been getting worse so I've been in a flare. However, I still review the books that are donated and I love doing that. I have a Masters in Library Science and have worked in both public and school libraries and volunteering for the jail ministry is by far the very best job that I've ever had. The girls volunteer to take out the Christian materials and are so grateful. It is the bright spot of their week. I still review the books that are donated. Many donations do go into the recycle bin... A lot of "new age" material is donated and other material by people who claim to be chosen by God to visit Hell or Heaven and make a profit of selling their books and promoting their ministries. We do our best to weed out materials that "add" to scripture and are not true to scripture. The American Library Association does not believe in censorship of any sort but at the jail, we are working with a very vulnerable group of women. There is enough good material available for them both non-fiction and fiction. We have never received any donations from the Joyce Meyer ministries, the T.D. Jakes ministries , Beth Moore nor the Kay Arthur. We do continue to receive generous donations from Dr. James Gills, also "Jesus Calling" The Bible studies conducted at the jail do not include Joyce Meyers. The girls request her I believe from watching her on TV or hearing about her from other inmates. People have donated material written by her.
DeleteGlenn, We really do need to be in prayer for this election. When it comes to human perfection though, I think of King David and even though he did things that were really bad..i.e. murder, adultery, God still called him a man after his own heart...
DeleteI agree that prayer is always best. As far as seeking perfection,no one is looking for a perfect candidate, because we all know that we sin. The difference between Trump/Clinton and King David is that David repented. He was sorrowful for his sin and sought the LORD always. Trump and Clinton have never repented, do not follow the Lord,and actually boast of their sins. So though David was far from perfect, God loved his heart because it was aligned with His own, not the devil's.
DeleteFrances, thanks for the clarification on Joyce Meyer. The way I read it in your previous comment that you do/did Bible studies and 'the girls can't get enough of Joyce Meyer', it looked like you were using Meyer to teach them.
DeleteI'm so glad you use your library skills to continue your ministry from afar, by reviewing materials! So wonderful. What was your review of the donated Jesus Calling material?
I'm not sure Beth Moore is actually backing Hillary but was disappointed that she didn't come out and say she was not. She just talked about how awful Trump's sexist language was and how it offended her so. Well….what woman would it NOT offend? I'm pretty sure that all of us have had some of that trash talk (and action) sent our way at one time or another during our life time and it brings back bad memories for us all. BUT….she needs to remember how many little girls (if it's women she's standing up for!) have been killed by abortion with HRC's blessing! Or the brave soldiers murdered in Bengazi….while HRC stood by. Those actions offend me MUCH more than Trump's talk. That was a big red flag for me with Beth Moore. She should have been clear on where she stands.
DeleteMarilyn…in Mississippi
This is a disturbing web site. Why are your sources better than anyone ese? Who are your solid men, who frankly, I never heard of... You seem to call any and all apostate who disagree with you. You are too narrow for me. I never heard of any thing you cite but the scriptures. Pretty sure I have never regarded Beth Moore as some sort of a goddess.
DeleteHi NanG,
DeleteYes, this IS a disturbing website. I'ts disturbing when a person likes a false teacher and discovers unfortunately that he or she is false. It should be disturbing to one's soul, because it means they have not seen or followed Jesus clearly enough and fell into sinful patterns that the false teacher filled or catalyzed. There should be a grief there, which says to the person "I've wasted valuable time following Beth More when I could have been learning about Jesus in truth! Oooh!" That's disturbing.
Just because you have never heard of the men I mention doesn't mean they are not worth listening to.
My sources are better because they come from the Bible, the best source there is. Or they come from men who teach the Bible credibly and well, the second best source there is.
I'm glad you never regarded Moore as a goddess. Sadly, many women do. Moore has developed a cult-like following of rabid adherents who viciously defend Moore. Many of these women follow Moore from town to town listening to her lectures over and over. I met one women who had been to 11 of them, in three states.
There are a lot of scriptures used, out of context to stop legitimate concerns. One favorite is, "don't judge", On the other hand, there are plenty of biblical admonishments on how to confront false teachings.
ReplyDeleteYou know, if I read my bible correctly we are all admonished to be aware. I don't recall it saying he'd give a select few this gift and they were to expose and warn everyone else. I'm quite sure having been a Christian for over 50 years that I can guess what denomination most of you enlightened ones belong to. Most of those you have identified as false are non denominational preachers or teachers. I was a Baptist for many years and credit it with my foundation in the word. We parted ways when I had an experience with the Holy Spirit that they tell me passed away with the apostles. So my caution to you is be careful.Romans 14:4 interestingly the heading for this chapter is "the principle of individual responsiblity".
ReplyDeleteFrances,
ReplyDeleteI fully understand, and we are not voting for a pastor. But I can't see how any Christian can justify voting for anyone in the Demokratic party, a party which boos God, is 100% abortion oriented and 100% pro-homosexual and every other sexual perversion to be forced upon us.
2 people had given me that book as a gift. I gave one away and read the other each morning. When my husband was at Cleveland Clinic getting a valve replacement which they did not want to do locally, the devotion for that day was not to worry about your loved ones, since they are in God's hands. I was worried since they did not want to do the operation locally because of his Kidney failure. I was encouraged to put John in God's hands. God did answer that prayer in a positive way and John is still with me. (62 years of marriage) It meant a lot to me that day. I know that some have criticized that little book but I have never found anything that was contrary to scripture. It provides helpful encouragement.
ReplyDeleteHi Frances, Praise God that your husband is OK and that things turned out well that day. God providentially took care of him, and you. I'm sure if you had been reading the Bible there would have been brought to you providentially a scripture that comfortred you as well.
DeleteAs for Jesus Calling, the entire book is contrary to scripture, because it claims to BE scripture. Sarah Young in her first edition's foreword, explained that she opened herself up to voices and wrote down what she heard and attributed what she'd heard to Jesus 'calling'.
Young's endeavor is actually an occult practice called channeling, and it is definitely not OK. Here, Pastor Tim Challies outlines ten things wrong with Jesus Calling. Please consider reading it and asking the Spirit to open your eyes and heart discerningly as to the problems in that little book which are pretty big. Thanks so much!
http://www.challies.com/articles/10-serious-problems-with-jesus-calling
Elizabeth, I absolutely agree about Jesus Calling. I was given that book as a gift but after reading the first few pages I threw it away! I felt the same way about The Shack. (don't remember who wrote it) It's hard to understand some of my Christian friends who absolutely LOVED both these books!! Scary!
DeleteI saw a question here regarding whether or not James was the brother of Jesus. I can't find the question but the following scriptures may help in answering the question:
ReplyDeleteMark 6: 2-3; Galatians 1: 9
I agree with you Glen. I definitely would not vote for Hillary or anyone now in the democratic party. You seem to have the idea that I am defending her.
ReplyDeleteNo, I just wasn't sure by what you wrote and I just wanted to clarify why we shouldn't.
DeleteI also want to respond the statement where I mentioned David's faults and God calling him " ...after his own heart" While true that David repented. Actually I did hear Donald Trump mention that he did regret that incident 11 years ago in a private conversation and some say that Trump did have a conversion experience. Only God can judge his "conversion" experience. I know that his statements do not endanger this nation, I believe that her actions do endanger us and isn't it also wrong to falsely accuse and dredge up private conversations in order to engage in character as assignation?. Her stand on issues are well known. She thinks the evangelicals and catholic church should change their thinking. There is too much about her that is documented. Trump has already surrounded himself with good people and will continue to do so. Hillary...not so much...only with those who will agree with her agenda.
ReplyDeleteThanks Frances. I will have to respectfully disagree with you, kind lady, on a couple of points. Trump's "regret" on this and a number of other incidents seem politically motivated to me, and expedient. Sincerity can't be faked. He is obviously not sincere about any of it.
DeleteGod will judge people on the last day, but we can and should judge people who claim to speak for God. We can't see the heart but we judge by the tongue (what comes out of the tongue shows what is in a man- Mt 15:18) and we judge them by their fruit. (Mt 7:16-20).
If a person belatedly claims Jesus but lives like hell over long period of time, we can safely say that person is not saved. And we should say it. People who are truly saved bear distinct marks of fruit-bearing, love, obedience to God's word, and speech. Accepting any and all people into the faith just because they say so dilutes the truth and pollutes the church. The Bible outlines standards. Trump fails them.
IF Trump had actually been going to church all these years, and he hasn't, (a huge clue as to his expedient and false conversion), he would have been disciplined and excommunicated due to Matthew 18:15–17-church discipline. He is an unrepentant serial adulterer and fornicator performing several bbilically illegal divorces.
The Bible does give us verses to gauge the sincerity and legitimacy of people's salvation claims, and gives churches means to deal with unrepentant sinners like Trump.
As far as private conversations, both trump and Clinton are public figures. According to the definition of public figure, and issue of privacy and slander within those public spheres,
"public figure is a term applied in the context of defamation actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy. A public figure (such as a politician, celebrity, or business leader) cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth). The burden of proof in defamation actions is higher in the case of a public figure."
In other words, public figures are entitled to less privacy under the law. There really isn't any such thing as a private conversation where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, as in Trump's case which occurred in front of a public microphone in preparation for a public interview to be shortly disseminated nationally. No expectation of privacy at all. Legally.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNo, you’re not reading your Bible correctly. There are two doctrinal issues in what you have shared. Allow me to expand on this.
First, the mature Christians are all admonished to be vigilant and all Christians are to employ some measure of discernment. (Hebrews 5:13-14) However the Holy Spirit DID dispense the specific spiritual gift of discerning of spirits, or, discernment, to a select few. (1 Corinthians 12:4-11.) He did so for the purpose of giving each local body an early warning system, and working together with all others in the local body who possess various gifts, the notion is that this keeps the body healthy.
The good health of a body comes from opposing untruth, and these come in the form of wolves bringing false doctrine. False doctrine spreads like gangrene. So, we warn.
Please do not try to mind-read which denomination we are all in. The gift of discernment does not extend that far, lol.
Your statement “Most of those you have identified as false are non denominational preachers or teachers” is not true. Steven Furtick is a Southern Baptist preacher, as are Beth Moore and Perry Noble. There are issues with John Piper’s discernment, something I wrote about recently, and Piper is also a Baptist. Jentezen Franklin is a Holiness pastor, Christine Caine grew up Greek Orthodox and was employed by a Pentecostal church, Hillsong. Those are the people I've pointed out as having red flags or are outright false. I am sorry you have things against denominations.
The second doctrinal issue is your belief that the sign gifts have continued. It’s especially sad that you claim to have gotten a good foundation in the word but chucked it the moment you had “an experience” and worse, chucked your church family too rather than submit to leadership. We do not base our faith in experiences, but on the word. The sermons at the Strange Fire website will expound more on why the sign gifts (NOT all gifts) have ceased. The sermons Testing the Spirits (https://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/TM13-6/testing-the-spirits) and A Case for Cessationism (https://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/TM13-7/a-case-for-cessationism) are a good start. Thanks.
I was reading a Proverbs 31 ministry book that talked about "social Justice"! I got rid of the book.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is true that Donald Trump would not qualify for Pastor in Chief. He has been legally married for eleven years. There have been reports by Evangelical leaders close to him that he accepted Christ as his Savior. A struggling, baby Christians sometimes do, they are not the best examples, Thanks God for grace and forgiveness! We were never meant to be the "excommunicators" of the church. Donald Trump is trying to do the right thing by his wife, his family and his country. The man is far from perfect, but only God is allowed to determine if his repentance is sincere or not.
ReplyDeleteHi ShelbyW,
Deletethaks for reading and for commenting. However I do have to share some scriptural truth with you so perhaps you will gain a better understanding of God's word.
1. We are meant to be excommunicators. Church leaders have at their disposal a method of church discipline in dealing with unrepentant sinners in which the final step is excommunication. This is seen in Matthew 18:17. We see continual admonitions for Christians to avoid people who claim faith but live like hell, for ex., 2 Thessalonians 3:14, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 2 John 1:10. So there IS both church excommunication and personal excommunication. John Piper voted with other elders to excommunicate his son Abraham Piper from his own church due to the son living in unrepentant sin.
2. Trump is an adulterer according to scripture. It does not matter how long he has been married, if his second (or third as in his case) is biblically not allowed, he is an adulterer.
"And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” Mt 19:9.
IF he is saved, as Trump claims, then I haven't heard him repent of this sin. Have you?
Yes you're right we do look at a person's sanctification over time, and the reason we watch it is so that the person can be held to account. If they are not sincere (i.e. continuing to sin) they are called to account. Once again I refer you to #1.
In addition, we can tell if someone is false by looking at their fruit. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness," Galatians 5:22. We don't make determinations based on secular notions that "the man is good because he is doing the right thing by his country". Millions of men are doing the right thing by their country, some of them, unlike Trump who had five draft deferments, are actually serving in combat. Now THAT'S doing right by our country! Doing the right thing isn't the barometer for godliness, lots of unsaved people do the right thing every day. If his repentance is sincere, babe in Christ or not, we should begin to see at least a glimmer of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. I don't see them. Do you?
Thank you, Elizabeth. We have never used her materials in our church. My godly pastor's wife and I both read and heard enough early on to know false teaching and explained it to our ladies. I appreciate your desire to be a "Berean" and pray we all will do so, not just with Beth Moore, but with Sarah Young and others.
ReplyDeleteI both agree with the general ideas presented here and disagree (at least with the presenter in the way she handled her 'proof'). I'm personally neutral on Beth Moore. I don't dislike her, but I don't quite trust her either. The author's claim that she does at times take scriptures that mean one thing and present them as another (with a human centric bent) is true. That's the reason I don't overly trust her as a teacher, but I'm not willing to call her a heretic for it. Not at this point.
ReplyDeleteThe authors other instances of proof are not convincing in my mind though. Concerning? Maybe. But the 'facts' are in need of context/clarification. She gave money to Lakewood for 'ministry aide'. This is a problem if it was intended to be used to further health/wealth/prosperity teaching, but we just don't know what it was for. As one of the largest churches in the country Lakewood could very well have been organizing community level projects that Beth gave to. School supply drive. Community clean up (after a storm/hurricane perhaps?) Home for abused women. Food Supply... wasn't 2004 the year Katrina hit and Houston housed a *huge* number of homeless New Orleans and Mississippi refuges/victims until they could be relocated throughout the country? My point is the author *might* be right, but in all likelihood 35,000 was for legitimate needs in the community that Lakewood was spearheading, *not* for the heretical teachings like she's trying to spin it.
The other thing I have a problem with is her attack on contemplative prayer/Lecito Divinia. Im not arguing *for* Lecito Divinia, my problem here is that if you click on this bloggers own link (the one for Lecito Divinia within the blog post) it routes to a youtoube page for 'Wretched Radio' where the host, *who was at the conference in Atlanta where this incident happened* can't even decide if that's what she was really intending. Moore read a scripture then at the end of the reading stopped and asked everyone to be still and ask Jesus (the spirit might be a better word) to speak to them. Can that be concerning? I guess if you're Joseph Smith and you're expecting to hear new information that's contradictory to scripture... and maybe its something to keep an eye on to see how her stance and teaching on such things develop... but I sort of doubt that's what Moore was encouraging. The author of this blog looses credit with me if this is her slam dunk proof as its almost bordering on slander. I feel this outs the blog author as being xenophobic toward Catholics more than it really says anything about Beth Moore.
So I'm neither here nor there with Beth Moore. I'll watch and see what really come out of these presentations with Joyce Meyer... but I'm afraid the blog author comes across to me as bending fact to support her axe to grind and poor understanding of Catholics (by that I mean lacking interaction with genuine people of faith within the catholic church) where she's labeled them as eastern mystics and calling it discernment without actually getting into the weeds of these accusations to parse out truth from fiction.
I both agree with the general ideas presented here and disagree (at least with the presenter in the way she handled her 'proof').
DeleteI’d be willing to look at the ways I handled the evidence if you’d kindly be specific or cut and paste where you didn’t like how I handled it
But the 'facts' are in need of context/clarification. She gave money to Lakewood for 'ministry aide'. This is a problem if it was intended to be used to further health/wealth/prosperity teaching, but we just don't know what it was for.
We do know what it was for. The 'fact' is, in 2003 Beth Moore donated to $1000 Joel Osteen for “Ministry Support”. In 2004 she donated $34,429 to Lakewood for “Ministry Support”. This was specified on the IRS donation sheet. Joel Osteen is a false teacher and none of his ministries need support. If Beth Moore wanted to donate to an abused women shelter or the homeless, she could have. She chose not to. She gave a significant chuck of money to Osteen’s Ministries.
The other thing I have a problem with is her attack on contemplative prayer/Lecito Divinia. Im not arguing *for* Lecito Divinia, my problem here is that if you click on this bloggers own link (the one for Lecito Divinia within the blog post) it routes to a youtoube page for 'Wretched Radio' where the host, *who was at the conference in Atlanta where this incident happened* can't even decide if that's what she was really intending.
I am attacking Lectio Divina, for good reason. It is a false method that falsely encourages people to engage in a false practice that originated from a false religion. Moore was CLEARLY practicing Lectio Divina. At the end of her part she said to ‘stop reading the bible now and be still and let Jesus speak His words to us.’ Her Lectio Divina exercise was to teach impressionable youth to deny the sufficient word of God in a canon that is closed. Not good.
The author of this blog looses credit with me if this is her slam dunk proof as its almost bordering on slander. I feel this outs the blog author as being xenophobic toward Catholics more than it really says anything about Beth Moore.
It is not the only slam dunk. There is other evidence that shows Moore is a false teacher. This one essay was just one proof. Just ask me if you need more information. No need to speculate.
Xenophobic is not the correct word to use here. Xenophobia is the fear of that which is perceived to be foreign. Using the word of God, we test Catholicism and find that Catholicism is a false religion. It's as false as Islam. Any person, including the Pope, who clings to what Catholicism teaches are not saved.
You seemed to have more of a problem with ways I presented the information and methods of introducing it than the information itself. You know, you can always just ask me for more proof or ask me for clarification. I’ll give it. Here is a link to an essay with over 50 links critiquing Beth Moore's teaching written by me, other women, and men/pastors. You asked for more proof. Here it is.https://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2014/07/all-beth-moore-critiques-here-in-one.html
Beth's books have changed my life. In a time when I NEEDED the message she gave and from GOD. This seems to come across very attacking and personal and some of the issues addressed are assumptions by someone who went on a mission to try to dig up dirt. Why are you NOT calling women to PRAY for these women? That should be the NUMBER ONE call to action. And yet, I don't see it here. Maybe you're wrong. Maybe you're right or only partially right. I will wait and see what happens with the supposed pairing with Beth and Joyce. And we are ALL human, so we are all subject to making mistakes and being wrong. EVERY single teacher is wrong at times, will be wrong, and we should be praying about everything we're taught and then digging in for ourselves - something Beth Moore teaches in EVERY study and book. So let's PRAY for Beth and Joyce. Let's pray for discernment and a heart that is willing to see something negative in someone or see where we believe someone is wrong and love them anyway. The way Christ instructs us. Because THAT is our job.
ReplyDeleteHi Mel,
DeleteWe do not assess whether a teacher is false based on our experience of them ("she changed my life", "she helped me!") but whether they are consistent as an ambassador with the correct teaching from scripture, the message Jesus gave us. Moore is faulty in this.
I used scripture to show how and where Moore errs. Where do you feel I went astray in the evidence I used? If you'd kindly paste and explain to me, I'll consider it.
The pairing is not "supposed." It's actual. It actually, really happened. The photos were taken, the results were tweeted, the promo material was sent, and the interview occurred. There is no "supposed" about it.
"Willing" to see the negative? Are you advocating purposeful blindness to teachers who preach wrongly and who at root, do not love Jesus? A person "willing" to ignore the dangers that every NT book (except Philemon) warns us about? We'd be disobeying scripture in your case.
Are we to pray for false teachers? Their condemnation is already marked out. Jude 1:4. Does Paul, Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, Jude, etc say to pray for ANY of the false teachers they wrote against? Hymenaeus? Alexander? The Judaizers? No.
That said I don't think it's wrong to pray for them. I have prayed for Moore. I and others have confronted her and called for her to repent. She won't. That's one of the reasons she is a false teacher. So what do we do when we have prayed, waited, called for repentance, and a false teacher still teaches falsely? We do what the Bible says, we mark them, avoid them, warn about them, speak against them. (Rom 16:17-18,Matthew 7:15, 1 Tim 1:3, 2 Thess 3:6, Titus 3:10...) We do this because WE LOVE JESUS MORE.
Here are two essays that might help in understanding the danger false teachers present and why we are to mark them, avoid them, call them out, and protect others from them.
http://www.gty.org/resources/study-guides/40-5174/how-to-treat-false-teachers-part-1
https://defendingcontending.com/2009/10/05/are-we-supposed-to-pray-for-the-wolves/
Mel,
DeleteThe Mormon Church changed my life and helped me. So should I praise the Mormon Church as Christian? Should I suggest everyone join the Mormon Church?
Fortunately I learned it was a false belief system and left it and later became a true Christian. You should do the same about Beth Moore -- learn the truth that she is a false teacher and leave her behind.
Why is Joyce Meyers a heretic
ReplyDeleteUnknown, The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry lays it out about Joyce Meyer, with verses, sources, and explanations.
Deletehttps://carm.org/joyce-meyer