Sunday, July 24, 2011

Beth Moore: reactions to Living Proof teaching in Charlotte. Part 1, The Women

Beth Moore: reactions part 1, The Women
Beth Moore: reactions part 2, The Music
Beth Moore: part 3a: The Teaching

Beth Moore: reactions part 3b: The Teaching
Beth Moore: reactions part 4: A final word

Hello all,

I've done a 7-part series on Beth Moore, and now I have a few blog entries in mind to share as my reaction from the 6-hour teaching we received in Charlotte at her Living Proof tour. If you are sick of Beth Moore stuff, I don't blame you...I don't like to write on one subject so long, myself. But I do think it is important to examine what she teaches. Here's why:

The Living Proof Tour: Charlotte NC was held in the Time Warner Cable arena, seating about 18,000. The first teaching session on Friday night was held from 7-9:30 pm, and Mrs Moore said that there were about 10,000 present, from two nations (Canada) and 34 states. The second session was on Saturday and the arena was considerably more filled. I'd estimate there were around 12,000 present. One woman I spoke with in the hotel lobby as the ladies were gathering to head out to the Saturday session said that she had driven in the night before from Michigan, twelve straight hours and then went directly to the Friday night session.

Scene is not from my trip, it is from here.
So we have thousands and thousands of Christians pouring in from over half the United States AND Canada to hear 6 hours of bible teaching. Either this is a very, very good thing, or it is a very, very bad thing. Are these women that in love with the bible? Are they that in love with Beth Moore? Or is it both?

For one woman standing in the long, slowly moving vendor's line, that was clearly answered for me. Let me set the stage for you first before I get to the conversation we had. The area outside the arena was full of energy and bustle. Cars, church buses and ladies from the parking lot moving at a half-trot made the 107-degree pavement outside the entry doors a beehive of activity. Women clutching bibles were streaming in from all directions, all streets, and made a line at the doors go down and around the block. It was general seating , there are no assigned seats. When the doors opened at 5:30 for the 7:00 start, a loud cheer went up and reverberated under the portico, where the lucky ones who'd arrived even earlier got to stand in some shade. At the doors, security men and women checked our bags, but likely all that they found in them were bibles, tissues, and notebooks.
source
Inside, there was a rush for the seating, refined and polite, as women from the south will do. We found 20 seats together and then my friends scattered to check out the vendors for dinner, since we had driven straight there ourselves and hadn't eaten lunch nor supper. We were sorely disappointed to find that a hot dog cost $7.50 and a bottle of water was $4. Prices were tripled. I understand that vendors have a captive audience and that prices at hotels and at arenas where most captive audiences congregate are usually higher, but this was grossly excessive to me. I know Beth Moore has nothing to do with the vendors or the pricing, but I was still disgusted. I wasn't the only one. Women up and down the lines were grumbling. Tonight was going to be a place of worship for 10,000 women and the money lenders and den of thieves had set up outside the temple. It was the impression I got anyway.

As I stood in the long line I struck up a chat with the lady behind me. The conversation between myself (EP) and the anonymous woman (AW) went like this:

EP: Have you gone to a Beth Moore bible teaching before?
AW: I've been following her for 11 years. I've done all her studies. The Breaking Free study was really good, because it's all about yourself.
EP: What am I 'breaking free' from?
AW: See, there are all these holes in us. And they fill up with bad stuff.
EP: Like what stuff?
AW: Any bad things in the world, tv, addictions. Your past. There's a hole God puts in us too but the holes Beth Moore talks about are the strongholds. Beth Moore helps us break free.
[I was struck by how she equalized the God-hole that fills with grace when we accept Jesus and the holes Beth Moore tells us we're pock marked with].
EP: What if I don't have anything to break free from?
AW: Oh, you'd be surprised! We all do! That's what Beth Moore teaches! That's what I learned during the study!
EP: Are you broken free now?
AW: Yes, now I can live the abundant life.
EP You're looking forward to tonight, then?
AW: Yes. I mean, I've gone to so many of her talks I've heard her testimony so many times I know her family even better than I know my own! I even know her dogs' names and all that, but I'm still looking forward to it.
EP: How is the bible part of it?
AW: Oh, that's good too.

Oh my. If this one woman is any indication, we have a significant cult of personality going on here.  I think it is safe to say that we have a Beth Moore groupie... Where is Jesus is in this? It was a question I was going to be asking myself constantly over the next hours and day.Now I know that one woman does not a cult of personality make, but the scene at the arena, the astounding influence her books, lessons, tv show on Life Today, and her studies are having on Christian women everywhere needs to be examined thoroughly. Is this what worship and bible study has come to these days?

Britton's review of the Breaking Free study in part 4 of my series "Troubled by Beth Moore's Teaching: Legalism", and I'm going to link to it again. I urge you to please read it in its entirety, because it sets up the threads for the next blog entry and actually for the basis of my objections to anything and everything Beth Moore. I call it "Why women need to break free from Beth Moore" and here is a Paige Britton excerpt from the review of 'Breaking Free':

"Beth Moore’s book Breaking Free: Making Liberty in Christ a Reality in Life is a condensation of her video-based Bible study of the same name. Written for Christian women, Breaking Free offers readers and participants the “diagnostic tools” to identify and address “areas of captivity” in their lives (p.21). These areas of captivity are variously identified as spiritual oppression, wounds and disappointments, God’s chastisement, mediocre discipleship, and dissatisfaction with the Christian life. Ten central chapters are devoted to exploring the “ancient ruins” and “old bones” of generational sins and past wounds (pp.81-135). From her reading of Galatians 5:1, Moore assumes that Christians can “return to a yoke of bondage” and require further instruction regarding their deliverance (p.21). She assures readers that, whatever their area of captivity, through her study they will indeed enter “the promised land” of “absolute,” “genuine” freedom and liberation, defined as “the abundant and effective Spirit-filled life God has planned” for each individual (pp. xiiif., 34, 2)."

"Throughout her book Moore prioritizes the subjective, experiential elements of the Christian faith. The most serious error resulting from this emphasis is the implication that Christ’s death actually did not secure for us true freedom or the “abundant life” that he promised his followers. Evidently we need to learn some new information and follow some new laws before we can “ignite” the abundant life, or, to put it another way, before God can “deliver us from the bonds that are withholding abundant life” and “set [us] free to be everything He planned” (pp.41, 177, 53, 51). Early on she hints that a secondary “filling” is necessary for the believer to be truly free: “The filling only He can give does not automatically accompany our salvation..."

In preparation for the trip this weekend, I studied Beth Moore intensively. I watched about ten clips from Life Today. I read three transcripts from several of her teachings. I  recalled my notes from the 'Loving Well' study I'd forgotten I'd participated in last April at our church's ladies retreat. I read reviews and blog entries about her of trusted men and women in discernment ministries. I re-read Tim Challies' "The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment" book. I prayed, and I read the bible as the Holy Spirit led. I wrote the 7-part series containing my initial conclusions. But I was looking forward to experiencing the phenomenon first hand. There is nothing like being there with no filter to see what's what. I was hoping, really hoping to have my previous conclusions dispelled. They weren't. This trip offered me an opportunity to study Beth Moore first hand, and I finalized many conclusions. One of them is that far from leading women into the truths of the bible, Beth Moore is putting women in bondage.

More in the next blog entry.

37 comments :

  1. Hi Elizabeth,
    I had no idea there would be this many people! This was a huge gathering!
    What really makes my heart sink is that she is leading people wrong and there is a Huge following and these women don't even know they are being duped. I wonder if Beth even knows or is she so caught up in the fluff of the crowd that she doesn't see it.
    Something I have always wondered about false teachers, do they know they are false or are they just as misled as their followers.

    This is good, I am learning so much about how to research and uncover the deception lying beneath the gold.

    <><

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  2. Sounds like people waiting for a rock star. Your description of what took place outside would be a number one reason for me not to attend such an event. I’m sure Moore’s team could have done something about the exorbitant prices.

    Iv’e seen the “cult of personality” in many women I know who are Beth Moore followers. I’ve said many time that it is very much like a cult the way her followers hang on her every word.

    I agree “Breaking Free” was very problematic, and I did a review on that one myself.

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  3. I wonder what would happen if a man or woman of God would just stand up and tell people something like this; If you want to be free from your sins then read John 8 and continue reading until you understand who gives you this freedom. If you want to stay free from the power of sin then read Galations 5.. and then proceed to read those passages with the congregation etc..Oh yeah, they do this each and every sunday in sunday school class and during the sermon from our pastors! Wow, what a concept..If you want to know more seek:
    1. With guidance from the Holy Spirit, READ THE BIBLE
    2. Go to church and LISTEN to the teachers and pastor whom God has given to teach you as well as the Holy Spirit..These people will work to confirm the Word of God..If they don't, then go to a different church.
    3. PRAY! Talk to your Father, and He will answer you, comfort you, and give you all you will ever need!
    Conclusion: STAY AWAY FROM MASS CULT-LIKE CHRISTIAN SEMINARS that cost you a fortune, make you look like a bunch of starry-eyed teen aged women who are ready to swoon at any moment.
    (save it for JESUS, He is ALL you need)!
    I just feel like there are so many well meaning but perhaps clueless Christians who are not truly seeking the one who can fulfill all those vacancies in their lives; they say they know Jesus and He is their Lord and Shepherd and then they run after somebody else to lead them. Silly sheep. Makes me a little mad.
    (Thanks for letting me vent here a little :)
    P.S. Beth Moore needs to humble herself before her Lord; and if she is a gifted teacher, once she remembers what and who the TRUTH is, she should teach it in her local church..for free.

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    1. I have the workbook Breaking Free and I could never quite get into it. Now, I know why.

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    2. Hi Katrina,

      Praise the Lord! I'm so glad he shed light on this for you.

      Beth Moore presents the Experiential, Breaking Free, Try Harder religion, yet Jesus BROKE US FREE **ALREADY**!!

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  4. Never Forsaken, it is ironic you mention Galatians 5, because in Paige Britton's review of "Breaking Free" by Beth Moore Paige says that Beth's interpretation of the verse:(Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage) is

    "From her reading of Galatians 5:1, Moore assumes that Christians can “return to a yoke of bondage” and require further instruction regarding their deliverance (p.21)."

    The verse really means broken free from bondage of rites and ceremonies, legalism, and yet that is exactly the legalism Beth Moore promotes in the next breath.

    As far as the starry eyed women at the seminar, I did notice that her appeal is mainly to white, well dressed, well-heeled women. In a demographic of 10,000 women I saw very few black ladies and barely any other minorities.

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  5. I was there, and correction as it was stated twice: there were 9400 people not 12000. Does the Bible state anywhere that it is wrong to use drums and guitars in worship? Do you honestly expect everyone to worship exactly like you? To the contrary the Bible encourages the use of percussion, symbols, and stringed instruments and to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. For one of the first times in my life instead of being distracted by others around me, my focus was completely on Christ and worshiping HIM and HIM alone. As Beth Moore so graciously taught us from the scripture we are not to debate, so I am not writing this to strike up a debate, but I am troubled that someone would spend such precious time and money to de-bunk or heckle a sister-in-Christ. You were not there to glorify or build up the kingdom but were instead a hindrance. Why not use your time more wisely and feed the sick or clothe the needy and spread the gospel as we are commissioned to do. What can be found wrong with the teaching of God's love?
    H-O-L-D-F-A-S-T God has set his love upon me (and I am so unworthy)

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  6. You are correct, it was stated in the beginning of the first session that there were about 9400, which I initially stated in the blog entry that there were "about 10,000", (because more trickled in after a while, I saw) and the second night I said there were many more and I estimated that to be "about 12000" because all the sections except the end sections were at capacity. I asked the officials what the capacity was, counted the sections by using the multiplication array, and arrived at the estimate.

    Yes we are to debate. Sorry, but theology matters. That was Beth misusing scripture to evade accountability. If we take what Beth said about never engaging in debates then we have to rip out most of what Paul wrote, because a lot of it was rebuke and correction. Look at 1 Cor 3:1-2. The scripture she used (not quoted) actually did not say not to engage in "heated debates" but says "But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth".(2 Tim 2:23-25). It's up to you to determine if this is a foolish and ignorant speculation or not, and if it isn't, then please note the rest of the verse, "correct those who are in opposition".

    That same chapter in 2 Timothy says to "Avoid profane and vain babblings, for they shall increase unto more ungodliness".

    There is nothing wrong with teaching about God's love. If Mrs Moore had used the scriptures properly in teaching the verses that *were* about love, then that would be good. She didn't.

    I ask you to consider to whom you are more loyal: Beth Moore or Jesus? Unless we Christians test all things, hold fast to the good, (scriptures cited above) and let the rest go, we're not loyal to His Spotless name. I would hope that you are as zealous for truth as you are for Beth Moore's reputation...

    As for clothing the poor and feeding the needy, I believe you're speaking of the Spiritual gifts of Mercy and Helps (Rom 12:7-8) which I happily participate in. But my main spiritual gifts are prophecy and exhortation (Rom. 12:6 1 Cor. 12:10 and Rom 12:8) so that is why I say these things. We are all called to do different things in the body and this is the ministry which He has set before me. Your job is to receive them, examine them, (1 Thess 5:21) and discern for yourself balanced against scripture whether they are good or bad. If you do not, you're simply giving Mrs Moore a pass because you like her, and there is nothing in scripture that says we're to do that. You would be failing your duty.

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  7. Charity,

    I would like to add just a couple comments to Elizabeth’s excellent response to you.
    First, how was she a “hinderance” - by not fawning over Moore? What exactly did Elizabeth hinder? You made the charge - substantiate it.

    Secondly, your question about what Elizabeth should do to use her time “more wisely” presupposes you know what she does in relation to these issues. I could respond with the same question to you - why don’t YOU use your time more wisely than following after a false teacher?

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    1. very harsh response, Glenn. A lot of anger in your response.

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    2. "Harsh" Ike? Really? Your assessment sounds a little "harsh" to me or maybe you still think a passive approach to defending our Faith is always better. You might want to revisit the New Testament and see how Jesus handled sinners when He really wanted to get their attention.

      Ike, I think Glenn is showing some of the same frustrations we all experience from time to time and "time to time" is happening with ever increasing frequency. The New Age/Emerging Church crowd expects and demands a great deal of latitude and receives a great deal of "public" support when it comes to voicing their heretical views. And they do so while calling born-again believers every name under the Sun and telling us when they want our opinions they'll give it to us! They meet any opposition with accusations of intolerance and bigotry while we just sit like frogs in a pot contemplating our shortly to be boiled naval as the heat is turned up ever so slowly.

      Maybe it's time, no past time for us to stop concerning ourselves with the feelings of those who so freely disparage our Lord and Savior. And then they rebuff any attempt on our part to have a calm and meaning discussion about our differences.

      I certainly am not advocated a screaming match but I think we are commanded to defend our faith and to correct those who attempt to twist our beliefs into whatever relativistic notion might be filling their head at the moment.

      Onward Christian Soldiers needs to become a reality and not just a hymn. Telling the "truth" is usually met with resistance and sometimes downright hostility. But that's part of defending our faith which is a big part of spreading the Gospel. Sometimes being "nice" is downright cruel.

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  8. Charity, who are you to say that Elizabeth isn't doing exactly what she has been called by God to do? She is a watchman (rather, watchwoman). She is helping the poor-- the poor in Spirit. The ones who desperately seek God, but are looking in the wrong place for Him.

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  9. I submitted my last comment too soon.

    Just because one loves God, loves Christ, that does not always mean they know to look in the right places for Him. It's easy for our ears to be tickled, especially when the focus is on how God loves US. US, US, US. It's not about us. We are poor in Spirit when we long for God, and know that there is NOTHING WE CAN DO to get to Him ourselves. It's always about Him. And this whole series of posts shows that Beth Moore makes it more about US and OUR experience, than it is about pointing to Him.

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  10. 'For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 2 Timothy 4:3

    'Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.' 2 Timothy 2:15

    ~ and therein lies the problem.

    False teachers would have no following if Christians took the time to read His Word, Study His Word, and pray; but then I guess it is easier to swallow and follow than to read, to study and to pray.

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  11. Another gathering of hate mongers. If someone has the audacity to become too popular the little people feel ignored and start circling for a kill. "False teacher!" People, I would suggest you get out your New Testament and read it though and this time take it to heart. I hope the Spirit of God will speak to your hearts before it is too late.

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    1. Hi ellie,

      I'm sad that you chose to call a clear, discerning, biblical opinion "hate." Hate is not simply disagreeing with another person. If you believe she is a true teacher then please share why. If you believe the verses I've used in the piece are used incorrectly or do not illustrate why Moore is false, then please share why. But calling people hate mongers is simply juvenile and does not advance anyone's understanding of the issues at hand.

      Your suggestion that we take our New Testaments (though why not the Old?) and read it was done, and I found that Beth Moore is a false teacher.

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  12. How interesting. My church ladies do her DVD seminar thingies. I personally don't go. I'd rather hear gifted teacher from my own church teach me.

    I think maybe the problem are the masses who idolize Beth Moore, more than Beth Moore herself. (There was a period in my life where I became so besotted with Oswald Chambers that I read "My Utmost for His Highest" to the exclusion of the Bible. That's when I put it away.)

    Honestly, I know NOTHING about Beth Moore that I haven't read from a third-party source; but, are we blaming her instead of blaming the sheep?

    My only gripe is, as I've said, I hate that music and teaching has gotten so commercial. My unsaved friend says that the evangelical churches are entertainment value. That stung....

    I just can't envision the sermon on the mount with loud music blasting and innocuous, folksy stories for the telling. And DON'T try to persuade me with Christian subculture nonsense of "reaching" people. Christ never used pop culture to reach His audience. We keep trying to better and refine on the Master's example.

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    1. Hi Anonymous,

      Great comment Anonymous. Thank you. And I agree with your unsaved friend about the churches all about being entertainment.

      I blame Beth Moore, AND the audience. The bible says teachers will be judged more strictly, therefore not many should be teachers (James 3:1).

      However, as Paul Washer says, the audience is not victims of the false teacher. They are experiencing the judgment of God upon them for not wanting God, but are being judged because of wanting what the wolf offers: their carnal heart's desires!
      5-min clip here:
      http://youtu.be/iWMrKcFKqzk

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  13. This is a wonderful blog. I usually don't like blogs. As I have found most just a waste of time. Where you learn nothing. And hear alot of personal confusions. You are a wonderful writer. And right on the money with your discernment. God has truly Blessed You. And will continue to do so. Keep up the good work! ps. 92:1 Give thanks and sing praises to His name, his loving kindness and faithfulness. Malachi 3:6 Never changing is the Lord our God.

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    1. Hi Anonymous,

      Thanks so much. I'm not so big on the hand-wringing, emotional stuff. I like facts and ideas, and when those facts and ideas illuminate Jesus as Savior&Lord, Prophet, and High Priest, then, all the better! It is the ultimate!

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  14. If you don't like Beth Moore or agree with her then why not just stay away from her? Why do you people get on here and judge her? I have learned a great deal from her bible studies and I am very excited about tonight. If she is wrong, which I believe she is not, then the Lord will take care of her not your judgmental comments. As far as the prices go, they are always the same It doesn't matter what the event is. Living Proof cannot do anything about the prices. Go through a drive thru before you get there.

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    1. If you read Revelation 2, the Church at Thyatira, the situation there was that a woman was teaching false doctrine (a Jezebel-type, Jesus said- Rev 2:20b). Many were following her (Jezebel's children- Rev 2:23). Jesus made promises about what He would do to the false teacher and what He would do to the followers.

      However, many were not following the woman who was teaching falsely. But Jesus still had a burden to put on those who "stayed away". He said they needed to repent too because they knew she was wrong, but they TOLERATED her false teaching (Revelation 2:20a).

      Jesus's church is a serious thing. Falsity is variously called a gangrene by Paul, a sickness by Jesus, poison by James...you get the idea. No one is supposed to see sin and falsity and leave the brethren to go their own way. I would be hating you to do that- not loving you like I'm supposed to.

      As for judgmental comments, YES THEY ARE. I prayed, studied, repented, read some more, and then I JUDGED her teaching unhealthy and I do not tolerate it. John said to judge righteously (John 7:24) and I pray that I have done so. If you were on train tracks unaware that the train was coming I'd warn you, wouldn't I? Of course! So, get off the Beth Moore Track!

      As for the prices, I stated clearly in the article that I know Beth Moore doesn't have anything to do with them but it still felt like a Temple greed.

      And the one thing you and I agree on is, yes, Jesus will take care of the false teachers like Beth Moore. He will also take care of all those who followed them and all those that knew they were false and tolerated them.

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    2. It is interesting to me that you call Elizabeth judgmental in her attitude towards Beth Moore. I am seeing this a lot in what I think is the emerging church. People are moving to an attitude that God is love and that love cannot go against anyone or anybody. This is false teachings. God is love but God is also a God of wrath. When people refuse to listen to the truth and would rather listen with itching ears to the lie, someone needs to warn them. Why do you suppose prophets were sent to the Children of Israel by God? It was to warn people to repent and turn back to God. It is no different today. People are turning away from true Biblical teachings from God and they must be warned. God does not want people to perish. He wants them to trust Him...not someone else!

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  15. Thank you for your blog Elizabeth. Thank you for warning about Beth Moore. I was attending a Beth Moore study at church and felt something wrong. Especially her breath prayers, and then I found out she endorses contemplative prayer and contemplative authors like Brennaning Manning and Susn Monk Kidd! My pastor said Beth Moore denies any involvement in contemplative prayer. I sent him links about the Be Still video and Beth Moore participating in the lectio devina at the Passion 2012. He said it's unChristian to accuse Beth of guilt by association.

    I noticed, too, that some of the women were so enamored with Beth Moore, it was uncomfortable.

    Our churches are saturated these days with contemplative practices. It's amazing. Where is the discernment? Contemplative prayer is a dangerous, occult practice. From what I've read it is even related to the kundalini awakening, like the baptism of the holy spirit that some churches teach.

    Thank you so much for your hard work.

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  16. Hi Elizabeth, I have not looked at your blog long enough to know who you are but came upon it because I was googling words that would take me to find others who are not into Beth Moore. So glad I'm not alone in thinking something just doesn't seem right with all the Beth Moore hype.
    It's ridiculous. I'm sure she's got some great qualities, but really??? I've scratched my head for a long time trying to figure out what's wrong with me for not at all feeling challenged or inspired by Beth. Maybe it's just the place I'm at in life. And maybe it has something to do w/my background. I grew up with a pentacostal, evangelical background/home. While there are some good things that came from my heritage, there is some dysfunction that came w/it too. I learned all to well how the Christian culture can become the foundation of our faith, instead of Christ. God doesn't usually do Christian ministry like a monarchy. Instead of being run by a few popular people, I've learned that true, authentic, nuts and bolts ministry happens in the darkest corners of society, not usually from a pulpit. Just my own experience anyway. People who are running ranches for abused youth, nursing home ministries, people running shelters for abused women, etc... God calls people to teach and have more visible ministries too, but I think when they come to a place of popularity and fame to the level of Beth Moore, it's time for Beth to be training new and younger teachers to go out into the local towns and churches, instead of everything coming from her. Kind of like when everyone was going to Moses to get advice and so God said it was time for him to have helpers to do the work. Surely, Beth has seen how in love people are with her. Seems like she'd want to strategically find ways to change that. Train others and encourage others to use their teaching gifts, find ways to be less visible so that Christ is MORE visible. When you see that your picture and name are plastered on every single church's teaching material, it's time to find ways to make yourself "less" of the focus. I have no doubt Beth is a devoted follower of Christ, but I think she's falling into the dangerous trap of what humans with too much success run into: enjoying the attention instead of putting a stop to it.

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  17. I am in a women's Bible study at my congregation and I am not the type to fawn over these mega churchs and starlit Bible teachers. We are on our second Beth Moore study, first we did Insecurity, and now Daniel. I take what aligns with God's word and I leave the rest. I am not afraid to disagree with these authors if I know if what they are saying is not Biblical. I will never pay to go to a Bible conference by one of these teachers. I go to an Assemblies of God Church and I am going to study to become an ordained minister. I whole-heartedly agree that music should accompany worship songs but not be used to manipulate feelings as I am also a psychology/ therapy minded person and to rely on emotions to worship or exercise faith is dangerous. We must turn only to Biblical truth as our compass not emotions.

    It is somewhat ironic that the Study of Daniel is about rejecting all the things Beth Moore seems to be, glamorous, wealthy beyond need as in over- indulgence. Hmmm we shall see how this turns out.

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    1. Hi Natalie,

      Thank you kindly for sharing your thoughts. I agree, it is pretty ironic that the study of Daniel and Beth Moore's life seem to be at opposite ends.

      Good luck on your ordination. The bible allows only men in the position of ordained minister, so... as you say, Hmmm, I'll see how that all turns out.

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    2. Hi Elizabeth,

      I chanced upon your blog while researching on end times signs. I note your highlighting of the Bible allowing only men in the position of ordained minister. In my Baptist church, we have women pastors who worked alongside men pastors. They are usually husband and wives (though not always so), so we have group meetings where the male leaders would meet the men, while the female leader would meet the females for ministry and bible study.

      In my church, women are also encouraged to rise up to take on pastoral roles.I wonder if it would be biblical for women to be pastors/bible study teachers as long as the woman leader/pastor each has a male partner, (sometimes the husband).

      Hope to hear from you your thoughts on the above. Thanks.

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    3. Hi CT,

      Thanks for reading and asking a good question like this. There is no easy answer.

      As to the office of pastor and operating in that role in the corporate body, I do believe the bible is clear on that answer. NO. Here are two resources to support that answer, John MacArthur is doing a blog series this week on women and their roles in church

      Can women exercise authority in the church?
      http://www.gty.org/blog/B130829

      Active Submission
      http://www.gty.org/blog/B130904

      As the question of whether a woman can lead a bible study in the church as long as there is a male partner, there are some biblical models for that, as MacArthur notes. The question isn't whether a woman can lead bible study at all or lead one paired up with a man, since there is biblical precedent, but can she do so in the corporate setting? That is where my understanding gets less clear. unfortunately, the MacArthur essay isn't all that clear (to me) either.

      If you read them, and they aren't long, and you see it more clearly than I do, would you please let me know your thoughts?

      My suspicion is that it is better to err on the side of caution and say no, women should not lead or even pair up in church, because the bible is very clear on male-female roles in and out of church. Though homes and other settings seem to be fine. Let me know what you think...

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    4. Hi Elizabeth,

      Thanks for your quick reply. I will read up on the articles provided and give the issue more thoughts.

      However, here's a quick comment first. As I try to understand God's order for the role of Christians in church and match it with the reality I see in my church, I feel troubled that women pastors/leaders are disallowed.

      There are ladies (especially single ones) who needed to be ministered to and prayed for in private settings say in a cell group and in such situations, I would think the role is more appropriately/comfortably taken by a female leader/pastor than a male leader/pastor? Are there scriptural references I can turn to to understand how women can be appropriately ministered to by male leaders? I raise this as personally, I find it easier and more comfortable to share certain thoughts/feelings with a female leader than a male leader.

      I would love to hear your sharing and thoughts. Thank you so much.

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    5. Hello CT,

      You asked, "Are there scriptural references I can turn to to understand how women can be appropriately ministered to by male leaders?"

      We first begin in the home. If a child, teen, or young woman is living at home, her father leads her &ministers to her. If she is married, her husband leads her & ministers to her.

      Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

      Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

      1 Timothy 3:5 For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

      1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,

      CT, those are but a few examples. Proverbs 31 and Titus also have some verses along these lines.
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      As for in church, how should the male leaders minister to women? By being the Godly example, as shown in these verses:

      1 Timothy 3:12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

      1 Timothy 3 goes on much more about how men (deacons, overseers, elders) should lead in the church.

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      Finally, how are women supposed to act in church?

      1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. The MacArthur verse I shared above expounds on this more with examples of appropriate womanly behavior.

      1 Corinthians 14:34 The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

      Here is a link to a sermon which expounds on Philippians 4:3, where Paul pleads with Euodia and Syntyche to get their act together and asks Clement to help them. These women were prominent, and fighting and causing spiritual instability in the Philippian church. Read more about it here
      http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/50-38/spiritual-stability-part-2-harmony-and-joy

      You might enjoy this article from the guys at The Cripplegate (blog) about male shepherding in the church

      "The Best Women’s Ministry? A Healthy Men’s Ministry"
      http://thecripplegate.com/the-best-women%E2%80%99s-ministry-is-a-healthy-men%E2%80%99s-ministry/

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  18. Thanks Elizabeth for scriptural references. I'm aware of them.

    If the ladies (single ones especially) come from a christian home, it would make applying scriptures easier. Unfortunately, many of us over here (in Asia) are first generation Christians, who do not have godly earthly fathers to turn to. Some came to know the Lord with unbelieving husbands still.

    I'll go through all the articles you have provided and pray to receive the wisdom needed. It would indeed be an ideal situation that godly husbands can lead the wives and godly fathers can lead the children, sons and daughters. This the vision our ministry has - to raise up godly men so that families can be strong again at home and in church. In the meantime, till the men rise up, we still need to understand what we can do to ensure the ladies' needs can be met.

    Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate it as I learn more from godly and discerning men and women like yourself.


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    1. Hi CT,

      When you asked for verses about male leadership and women’s roles, those were the best ones I could think of. I guess they are the famous ones that everyone knows. If there is anyone who has knowledge of other scriptures relating to this issue please do chime in. I’m not familiar enough with the bible to know of there are others.

      I am so sorry that there is a dearth of male shepherds in you area of the world. It is a tragedy of unseen proportions that plagues the Body of Christ in one way or another these days. I can’t imagine the heartbreak of living with a spouse who is unsaved … I know these women must be desperately yearning for the husband to come into saving grace and receive blessings and not wrath.

      In America , we have plenty of men who SAY they are saved, yet fail to lead their families and churches in the ways commanded in the bible. They capitulate their headship due to unwillingness, laziness, or ignorance, and the vacuum is increasingly filled with aggressive feminist women seeking to usurp authority, or truly serving women who nonetheless fill male roles out of ignorance. And the church lets them.

      I’m glad you’re going to take some time to read the links. The issue of male shepherding and female roles is an issue that has MUCH opinion around it and is embedded in MUCH false doctrine these days. The internet is wild and wooly on this topic and truth is hard to find. The links to anything on John MacArthur’s site will be solid. I’ve read most of what he has preached or written about regarding men and women in the church, including the sermons on the verses I’ve shared. By all means check them out, and as always stay in the word to see what it says for yourself. Blessings to you my sister.

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  19. Thank you so much Elizabeth for your response.

    Perhaps, there are also truly serving women who fill male roles out of ignorance in my church and my church let them out of ignorance or a different interpretation of the biblical verses. I'm not in the position to comment until I find out more.

    Though within our immediate family ministry, the male leaders focus on strengthening families and raising other godly men to fulfill their God-given roles in their families and area of ministry; the other ministries' focus are somewhat different. It would then seem strangely contradictory for us to be in a church that allows women to be in authority in church.

    I hope to understand my church perspectives of having women pastors in the days to come. It is of great concern to me that we should be obeying the word of God.

    God bless!


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    1. God bless YOU, CT, for being such a model of discretion and respect even in your approach to asking the questions and searching for answers. Godspeed you on your journey in giving Him glory.

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    2. OK. Let's try again. My first scribblings disappeared. I'm a bit of a news junkie, arm chair historian and obsessive reader. I've been drawn into researching BM for one of my church's elders. Prominent lady in the church has involved the church with a BM video thingie and there's this one other lady who's appalled.

      I've read and read and listened to Radio Pirate guy and thought and prayed. My head hurts. My heart aches.

      Conclusion: BM is at best a sloppy student of the text of the Word, at worst, a feelings-are-everything distorter of the truth of the Word. Her critics seem wrapped up in seeing appeals to legalism in every BM reference to anything we Christians 'need' to do or in any mention of the forbidden word, 'obedience'.

      Purely as a result of natural and rational observations, I see this country collapsing in the near future. Our essential failures are moral and a compromising and confused American Church has tried her best to accommodate herself to this downward spiral in hopes of connecting to those caught up in it. Foolish and debilitating pursuit, if you ask me.

      Isaiah 26:9 speaks to the notion that when God's judgments are in the earth, the people learn righteousness. Our collapse is a deserved judgment whose first and most important effect will be to teach a squabbling, dissembling and confused Bride 1) that righteousness exists 2) what righteousness consists of and 3) that we are to seek it.

      When the collapse comes (if it comes), a purified American Church will have its finest hour. Squabbling over BM or Rick Warren or over whether poor Billy Graham is an apostate will be over. The purified and focused American Church will be the one and only institution connected to a fractured American social landscape. The Church will be, Lord willing, the foundation for whatever semblance of national recovery America experiences.

      A pox on BM, for sure. As for her critics, well . . . there's a few well meaning pox-worthies among that hysterical lot, too!

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    3. Beth Moore says Jesus lifted her into another dimension and personally showed her the global church through his eyes, and then gave her extra-biblical revelation. Here it is: Jesus said to Moore that "My bride is paralyzed by unbelief." And Jesus told her to go back and tell this.

      There are so many doctrinal and blasphemous disasters attached to that "teaching" by Moore that the evil coming from it is hard to even write about.
      Squabble? Hardly, Mr Hoy.

      Please do not make light of Moore's influence in legalism, bible twisting, pop psychology, visions, and eisegesis. Jesus didn't. False teaching KILLS and DESTROYS. He said in Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet."

      False doctrine and false teachers are no laughing matter, your faintly chauvinistic phrase,"hysterics," aside. Much of the New Testament is given over to warning us about it, teaching us to spot it, and telling us what to do when we meet it. Pooh-poohing and downplaying ares not among the warnings we are to implement.

      (Romans 16:17, Mt 7:15, Gal 1:8, Gal 1:9, 2 Thess 3:6, Titus 3:10, 1 Tim 1:3, 2 John 1:10...)

      You said, " The purified and focused American Church will be the one and only institution connected to a fractured American social landscape."

      I'd be interested in a bible verse that shows Jesus has selected the American Church for special dispensations.

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