Wednesday, July 20, 2011

Troubled by Beth Moore's teaching: Part 1, Introduction and Casualness

I mentioned I was headed to a Beth Moore convention this weekend, part of the Living Proof Ministries tour. I should say right off the bat that I don't favor gender-segregated ministries. I am not a fan in particular of woman's ministries. I think they rely too much on emotion and not nearly enough on theology.


I should also say I'm from the North, but I live in Georgia. I've never gone through a Beth Moore study. Last year was actually the first time I'd heard of her. When a church friend mentioned her and I innocently asked "Who's she?" I'll never forget the response. She looked at me like I had two heads and gushed "BETH MOORE! You've GOT to go through one of her studies!!!!!!!!!" And so on. Lots of exclamation marks.

I was immediately skeptical. Because I have an end time prophecy and discernment ministry, and knowing it is the end time and we're to expect false doctrines, I'm always skeptical of wildly popular Christian personalities. Being wildly popular these days is almost a sign that falsity exists. People do not stand for sound doctrine, period. "The time will come when they [the people in the church] will not endure [tolerate] sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths” (2 Timothy 4:3-4). If there is a wildly popular, lucrative book, DVD, and speaking tour, sellout crowds, AND it is based on strict truth and nothing but the truth, show it to me and then knock me over with a feather.

Last, Beth Moore plays up the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair, ultra-feminine mystique...something that I as a Yankee find mystifying. It's a cultural thing, I know. But just because it is a women's ministry doesn't mean all women will understand the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair persona or even understand what she's talking about half the time. However, if the bible is center stage, it will transcend cultural differences, wouldn't it? Let's see.

So those are my beginning positions. But none of them are important, because the only thing that is important, ultimately, is Beth Moore's stance on the word. Does she, or does she not, teach truth? That is what I am looking into. This will be a multi-part series. Apparently, there is a lot to say...

First, let's look at discernment. Discernment is a good characteristic, something we need: "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) Having no discernment is bad: "Folly is joy to him who is destitute of discernment, but a man of understanding walks uprightly." (Proverbs 15:21)

Discernment is called for especially in these end times of deception: "For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough" (2 Corinthians 11:4; and 2 Timothy 4:3 quoted above).

Discernment defined by John MacArthur is "ability to understand, interpret, and apply Truth skillfully." Tim Challies defines discernment as "the skill of understanding and applying God's Word with the purpose of separating truth from error and right from wrong."

Hebrews 5:14 teaches that: "solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Discernment is a skill that has to be exercised.

One last caveat: I've watched Beth Moore clips and studies. I've read up on her. I've prayed. I've consulted the scriptures. I have some early concerns about her approach to theology, her method of teaching and her doctrines. I'm still looking forward to the weekend, because I want to investigate these things in person. But I do have grave concerns already. I did not want to go on the trip to the convention but the Spirit prompted me to, and even made provisions for me to go. I have a feeling that a discernment ministry is the reason. If you have rebuttals to what I share here, you must do in like kind, have watched her, prayed, and most important, consulted the scriptures and share the verses that inform your opinion. 'I love Beth Moore and you're a silly-head" kind of comments won't make it through moderation.

OK, to start with my concerns about Beth Moore:

The first one I came across was disappointment when I went to the Living Proof webpage to see what she would be speaking about in Charlotte. I like to prepare ahead. I read the verses, I read the context, I pray, I get a sense of the intent of the verses. I need that grounding and I like to have it. I was surprised at what I found:

"Beth's focus will be on the Scripture that God lays on her heart for each individual Living Proof Live event -- no two are the same."

So, no verses. Aside from my personal disappointment at not having an opportunity to learn the verses, the context, and to pray for her and the women I'm attending with based on those verses, I have a qualm about this kind of approach to bible teaching. It is too casual for me. It sounds nice, it sounds like it is being personalized, but it is not. She sold out at the Columbia Colonial Life Arena (18,600) last year and apparently the one I'm attending at Charlotte's Time Warner Cable Arena holds about the same number and is also nearly sold out.

Simply waiting for the Spirit to 'lay it on her heart' and being good to go seems disrespectful and also dangerous. In the first instance, it is disrespectful to God to be unprepared. Secondly it is disrespectful to the audience. I want to know that she has spent time treating the Word rightly, preparing and double checking. Would you like it if your pastor told you Sunday morning that he waited for the verse to be laid on his heart and then he bounded up the pulpit steps and launched in? No, I wouldn't either, and he is a seminary trained man whose systematic theology is his foundation. Beth Moore has none such. The risk of treating the word casually is too great to approach it this way.

2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Barnes notes explains the verse:
"Study to show thyself approved unto God - Give diligence 2 Peter 2:10, or make an effort so to discharge the duties of the ministerial office as to meet the divine approbation. The object of the ministry is not to please men. Such doctrines should be preached, and such plans formed, and such a manner of life pursued, as God will approve. To do this demands study or care - for there are many temptations to the opposite course; there are many things the tendency of which is to lead a minister to seek popular favor rather than the divine approval. If any man please God, it will be as the result of deliberate intention and a careful life."

Now, to be fair, there is a period of ten days to two weeks or so between each event, and perhaps she does study between each one as the Lord lays it on her heart. But the seeming lack of forethought doesn't inspire confidence that that is what is happening. As a matter of fact, it inspires the opposite. If she rightly divides the word at some point the scripture explanation will be consistent, because the Holy Spirit is consistent. Last, I am not worried that "any two will be the same." I'm not an excitement junkie. I don't worry about repeats. Even if the scriptures used at one event are the same scriptures used another a year later, I will be a different Christian because I will have grown. I'll absorb it differently. And what if the Spirit DOES lay the same scripture on her heart, gasp! two events in a row? Would she chuck it, fearing 'it might be the same?" Maybe she is the excitement junkie.

Next blog entry, we'll look at her manner of delivery. I'm going through the more superficial (but just as important) things before getting into her treatment of the Word itself.

-----------------------


Next entries in the series-
Troubled by Beth Moore Teaching, Part 2: Un-dignified teaching
In which I look at one of the things that happens when women teach (tag-end questions and affirmation seeking), the undignified delivery of her lessons, and the problems with a rapid-fire teaching.
Troubled by Beth Moore's Teaching, Part 3: Contemplative Prayer
In which I explain what Contemplative Prayer is, why it is bad, and Beth Moore's participation in it.
Troubled by Beth Moore Teaching, Part 4: Legalism
In which I define legalism, and show three examples of Moore's tendency toward it.
Troubled by Beth Moore's Teaching, Part 5: Personal Revelation
Beth Moore claims direct revelation from God. Is this biblical?
Troubled by Beth Moore's Teaching, Part 6: Eisegesis, Pop Psychology, & Bad Bible Interpretations
Does she interpret the bible that badly?
Troubled By Beth Moore's Teaching: Part 7: Conclusion
It is not about Beth Moore-it is about our own proper discernment. Recommendations for discernment studies and also good women teachers

41 comments :

  1. Thank you for this. (and for the ones to come)

    I only heard one Beth Moore study, and to be honest, I only half-listened to it. It was awhile ago, and I was doing other work on the computer. Since it was supposed to be a study on Revelation, which I am familiar with, I thought I could half-listen. A friend had loaned it to me, and I wanted to at least try it out.

    Now, since it's been awhile, I can't remember what my qualms were about specific things she said, but I do remember having a few reservations, and there were a few times when she said something that I immediately though, "No." Some of her insights weren't bad, necessarily, but when I finished listening to the study, I didn't feel good about looking into her any more than that. And I didn't understand the draw others had for her.

    Like I said, some of it "wasn't bad." And I wish I could remember what my qualms were about. But I can't. So since then, I've just not even bothered to pursue her at all.

    I think you have an excellent level of discernment from the Holy Spirit, so I am very glad you are tackling this project. Looking forward to the rest of it.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I have no read any transcripts of the Revelation study but I did read a discernment ministry blog today that took issue with some of the teachings in it: she misplaced the timing of the rapture (not pre-trib and not even pre-wrath but stuck somewhere in between) and also could not identify the elders on thrones...plus another error I could not remember. But as I said, I have not studied that particular series.

    As to your comment, That's why she is so popular and there is little outcry against her: she is good sometimes and not good others. Everyone can say that Joel Osteen is not a preacher, he will not even declare if a person who follows Allah will go to hell. That's a fundamental way which we can rightly judge he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. But Moore does evidence bible study and in some cases rightly divide the word...and in others not so much.

    I do think that in the beginning she was solid. She has been at this for 26 years, you know...and anyone who drifts into a busy life with tours and books and signings may let the actual study slip. I think that is what happened. And also the fame does change a person.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hi Elizabeth,
    I have never heard of Beth Moore until I read about her here on your blog. I wonder if she gets the not planning on what to speak about from this.. Mark 13:10-11
    10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
    Now this does say 'when you are arrested', but this is the only Scripture that I can think of right now.

    Beth Moore sounds like Heidi Baker. Heidi does this thing of waiting for the Holy Spirit to tell her what to speak about. Sometimes she will plan a talk only to totally change it because the Holy Spirit tells her to do so. I have heard it said about her that she won't make a move unless the Holy Spirit tells her to do so. She has planted 10,000 churches in southern Africa and feeds around 10,000 children a day.

    I don't think there should be to worried unless what she teaches is not Biblical. If what she says lines up with the Word of God then you will know what she says is guided by the Holy Spirit.

    I will be keeping you in prayer during this conference if you like.

    Blessings,
    <><

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hi Child of God,

    Thank you for the good thoughts. Yes, it absolutely could be. I was worried about the 'no two alike' thing though.

    I am just about finished with part two, and that concludes the essays about the delivery of her teachings. The third part will be the content, and no, some of what she teaches does not line up with the Word, from what I've investigated so far. I'll also try to find some good women teachers for us to listen to.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I live in Houston and know many women that go see her preach at a local baptist church around here. I have seen her on TV but hardly ever pay attention to her but most of the time what I hear sounds about right. I will say I also half listen to her because she usually says ALOT in a short time span so I probably miss the iffy things she says. I'm looking forward to read your other post about her.

    What do you think of Revive our Hearts and Nancy Leigh Demoss' teachings?

    Also, I really need to ask the holy spirit for a discerning spirit...

    you said here, "Simply waiting for the Spirit to 'lay it on her heart' and being good to go seems disrespectful and also dangerous."

    I actually went to a conference at a church I've felt led to attend (but I'm so confused about it because it's a HEAVY WOF church...) and Jesse Duplantis announced he was just going to preach from the spirit and proceeded to say things that made my jaw drop. I heard alot of weird things the past week that left me so so confused but my mother who is a strong, prayer warrior said that she asks the holy spirit to let her hear what is for her and to shut her ears to what is coming from their flesh.

    Keep in mind we went to hear Mike Murdoch preach during the week also...and we had an argument after because of the things I was hearing from this man. My mother believes sowing seeds is biblical (and she did quote scripture to support it) and oh yeah, she has been listening to Benny Hinn for over 20 years. I don't question her salvation in the least and she's been used strongly by The Holy Spirit in my walk as a baby christian but it gives me pause. Interestingly enough, the day I saw Mike Murdoch preach, I had prayed before I started my devotion about the confusion I had and went on to read about false teachers in my daily devotional.

    I sense the holy spirit leading me to the church but when I see and hear the pastor entertain preachers like that...my heart gets so heavy and so confused about things I hear and I know I do not serve a God of confusion. I'm not saying I don't get blessed or don't learn about Christ there. There have been many times when I'd be going through something and the preacher would give a sermon or a word that was about what I was going through. It is a church that values serious prayer and fasting but sometimes the subtle focus on material things, seed sowing..etc just sticks out like a sore thumb. I just suck it up and go now and I have chosen to let go and let God. I wanted to ask you about this personally but I figured I'd write it on here for someone that might be going through the same thing. Sorry for rambling by the way.

    So, what are your thoughts? Thanks so much Elizabeth.

    ReplyDelete
  6. HI Debbie,

    I just posted part 2. I'll post Part 3, the meat, tomorrow.

    Thank you for your wonderful comment and questions! I will mull them over and respond tomorrow. A cursory look into Nancy Leigh Demoss is that she was one of the first to spot the book "The Shack" as heresy. This is a good sign.

    I'll write more tomorrow :)

    ReplyDelete
  7. Thanks so much, I look forward to reading your reply!

    ReplyDelete
  8. Wow, I am so interested to read your other posts on this subject. Our church decided to go through one of her studies this year (on the book of Daniel). I wanted to do it so bad, but God told me no firmly 3 times.

    What was so weird was that while I was doing a different Daniel study on my own (by Warren Weirsbe)I kept hearing all the women at church talk about how amazing Beth Moore is. I was upset by this because they were more excited by her personality that they were about the amazing text of Daniel itself.

    I wondered if she was not drawing more attention to herself than the Lord, but I don't know for sure because I didn't do the study. I can say for sure that the women at my church did not talk about how amazing the book of Daniel was, they only said how amazing she is.

    I also know that our church does not sell her books in our bookstore because we don't believe everything she teaches (as far as spiritual gifts and meditation). BUT we do her study. I have been confused. Are we not supporting her by doing her study? Are we not validating her? We don't agree with T.D. Jakes theology, but if he had a popular study that would draw crowds, would we do that as well?

    As far as how she divides the word of God . . . I listened to a teaching of hers on Hebrews 10:35 "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward." And I personally feel like she took it out of context and taught something false. The text is about putting our confidence in our flesh and following the Law versus trusting in the completed work of Christ to cleanse us of our sins. Our confidence is in CHRIST. But she said the verse is about self-confidence and went into a bunch of stories about women who are insecure and timid, but should be self-confident. She related it to ONE verse (also out of context). She said Philippians 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" means that we can accomplish all that we want to. That is not what that verse means. Paul was saying that he could be content in times of abundance or need, in times of hunger or plenty, in times of suffering or peace. It is about how we can get through the situations in our lives with the Lord helping us. It does not mean, as Beth Moore taught, that if I want to be in the NBA I can do it if I have self-confidence because of Jesus!!! I think that was twisting scripture and promising people something that is not true.

    How about the message of "So what if you are ugly or fat or poor or unsuccessful. You have Jesus Christ! He is all you need and His grace is sufficient! It isn't about YOU. It is about Him. How can you bring HIM glory!?" Because not only can you find a lot of Bible verses that will support that, it changes our perspective from the worldly self focus that we already have and gives us a purpose for living bigger than we are.

    But I don't think women will flock to a woman who tells you that as much as they will to a woman with big hair, who spends half a study talking about hormones, shopping, and PMS.

    Okay, now I'm gonna read your other blogs!!!

    P.S. I will be honest, when you said you were going, I wondered to myself if you were really one of those women who were into her. I guess I am happy that you thought about WHAT was actually going on, and didn't just go with all the excitement!

    : )

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A while back I used to dialogue with Christians at Prophecy News Watch forum (which is no more) and the longer I posted there the more things I seemed to be in disagreement with the majority (timing of the rapture, Reform theology--most there were in the Arminian camp--faith/works, and then Beth Moore), so when I posted about my problems that I had with Beth Moore's teachings, it was the final straw against me because the moderators all loved her.

      When anyone checks out her webpage, it is all about Beth Moore in big huge letters, and you have to look hard to find anything about Jesus...He is a side issue to Beth Moore, Beth being the star attraction.

      "I wondered if she was not drawing more attention to herself than the Lord, but I don't know for sure because I didn't do the study."

      Anonymous, the Lord gave you excellent discernment.

      Elizabeth, I recognize that you don't agree with me on every point, and I understand if you don't want to publish my comments. :)

      Delete
  9. Hi Anonymous,
    Thank you for your great comment! As far as your interpretation of the Hebrews teaching and the verse she used, I explored that EXACT verse in part 6, and also came to the exact conclusion you did.

    I don't like women's ministries. I hate crowds. I don't like to travel. I had had little experience with Beth Moore (though the ladies at church LOVE her). So when the retreat came up, I said, 'nope.' When the Lord began to prompt me to go, I was startled. So I prayed and the answer was 'go.' I said I have no money and can't afford it. The phone rang with someone from church offering a subsidy. Oy, I guess he really wants me to go.

    So being a Berean, I began to study about her this week. Not her studies, but study HER. I do that with all the teachers and preachers I listen to or read. With the ministry of the Holy Spirit, He began to open my eyes.

    Monday I was ill, not sick, but ill with a spiritual malaise. Tuesday I decided to ask my pastor for a meeting (unknown subject, but the Spirit was prompting me to visit). So we talked and I said I think he is preparing me for a ministry this week. After that I felt better. Wed I studied her all day. I was so sad to see what her teaching is really all about, and also dreading the weekend not only because I have to listen to it but because I will likely have to confront the popular thought about her with my friends. Thu I wrote all this. And tomorrow I go. Now I know why the Spirit wanted me to attend...His ways are not our ways.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Debbie, I have not forgotten you or your questions. I want to put together a little packet for you of resources that will help you not just to answer them in the short term but that you can return to as you grow in discernment. Hang in there!

    ReplyDelete
  11. Me again - I read the posts and was so encouraged by the depth of discernment.The remnant indeed is small, but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds.

    The insight that those who speak truth rarely have such a huge following was most enlightening. I appreciate your candor and your commitment to speak truth - regardless.!!..

    I have participated in two Beth Moore teachings and found neither of great benefit - moving so quickly it was difficult to keep up - find the verse and follow as she read. I was unable to act as a Berean and rightly divide the Word.

    I am a Texan, born, raised and living in Texas and Believe me - I know few Texas women who have big hair and we talk so slow down here the yanks grow tired of listening.

    Keep up the good work Elizabeth. Hazak.!!.

    ReplyDelete
  12. "Beth's focus will be on the Scripture that God lays on her heart for each individual Living Proof Live event -- no two are the same."

    I've noticed that you are unable to prepare or review materials from most of these teachers/curricula -- you are required to make the commitment first and then have to go through the trouble of undoing the damage afterward, or returning the materials, etc. It's a way of forcing you by your innate politeness into promoting their message.

    Would you like it if your pastor told you Sunday morning that he waited for the verse to be laid on his heart and then he bounded up the pulpit steps and launched in?

    Sadly, all too many people WOULD like this these days. They consider that letting the Spirit speak/not quenching the Spirit with their own intellectualism. Or something.

    I am looking forward to reading through this series. I would say you got off to a good running start here. I hope you don't get too much abuse. I know that some people who dare to question the Moore end up with a lot of really nasty flames in their inboxes from these "nice godly ladies" that are her fans.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I know that some people who dare to question the Moore end up with a lot of really nasty flames in their inboxes from these "nice godly ladies" that are her fans."

      I can attest to that myself, got kicked off a "Christian Forum" (it truly made me question if they indeed were Christian or not by the way the dialogue went).

      Again, Elizabeth, if you decide not to post this because I disagree with you on one point, I completely understand. :)

      Delete
  13. It is almost sickening how some people just sit back and judge someone else's work. Sound's like to me you could use some excitement, rather we might call it "joy". My dear if you truely knew the word of the living God, you would know that his Holy Spirit has and does move spontaneously. I encourage you to dive deeper in his word. It sounds to me that you are missing out on some of God's wonderful works

    ReplyDelete
  14. My dear, aren't you...erm...judging my work? LOL.

    Interesting how you make attacks but do not use the bible to back it up. The bible that is all joy tells us to judge, discern, test. Rebuke, exhort, proclaim. Never does it say "be a patsy and accept all that is presented in My name"

    1 Thess 5:21 By all means use your judgment, and hold on to whatever is good."
    1 Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things...
    Luke 12:57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?"
    John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."
    Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

    Don't be destroyed for lack of knowledge!

    ReplyDelete
  15. I really enjoyed reading your blog, and I was struck by how close our opinions are concerning the end times and discernment. Some may accuse me of being a little too discerning, however, after having done some research as to how churches are being infiltrated by false prophets who twist and manipulate scripture all over the world, I think my discernment is justified. I too am sketptical of "popular" minsters who profit greatly from their ministries, lack scripture in their teachings, and are almost worshipped themselves. We must be careful to follow God's word, and not man's word, just as we need to be careful to follow God and not man. We were given the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us to understand the scripture, so when given the option to read the divine words from God himself, or to listen to man try to explain his words...without the scripture to back it up, I personally will choose the former. I am not speaking directly about Beth Moore...because I don't enough about her, I am speaking in general about the end times (now) and false prophets. To all fellow Christians out there, stay vigilant, and may God bless you.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I am astonished that you would even write blogs about Beth Moore when you have not ever done her bible studies or have been to her conferences. Even if you have I suggest that you have not paid attention to her teaching, that you went into listening to her biased.
    I am 50 years old and have studied theology, I have been under the teachings of many pastors and bible study teachers. In the course of my studies I have done 6 Beth Moore studies, I have been to her live conference 7 times and I have viewed her on the Life Today show on Wednesdays for the past 5 years.

    She does not advocate any other kind of prayer accept the kind that we are to focus God and God's scriptures. When she talks about meditating it is to meditate on the scriptures and to empty ourselves and allow Gods' Holy Spirit to fill us.

    It saddens me as I have read countless people who attack her teaching style. I would suggest that you have looked at her with a Pharisees heart. That you yourself do not get her way of teaching because you have not suffered in strongholds and have never had anything that has captured you and held you there. Women suffer from their own accusations to themselves in their own mind, we hold ourselves captive in those thoughts of " we are not pretty enough, we are not good enough we are not skinny enough we are not worthy enough" we suffer from vices such as alcohol, bad relationships, drugs, very bad self esteem, and soooo much more.
    Beth only teaches we demolish strongholds by taking captive every thought to Christ... 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of this world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of GOD, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
    Beth teaches freedom in Christ, that Christ is our Salvation, He is our healer and physician. She teaches that we need to transform our minds Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will.

    These are 2 verses that are her focus in her teaching because so many Christians have strongholds and have no idea how to rid their lives of them. And meditating on Gods word is exactly what we are to do in order to transform our minds and our lives. "Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful."Joshua 1:8

    It saddens me that you have pulled her apart and judged her without truly knowing what is at the heart of her and her teaching and that she promotes in CHRIST ALONE is there salvation we cannot clean ourselves up enough but that only through Christ can we be clean.

    I suggest that her integrity is in tact that she does not divulge in tearing down the body of Christ, she does not speak against the ones who wronged her as a child, she believes that we, as the body of Christ, can unite together under CHRIST.

    James 1:26-27 "Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is the: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. I HAVE done Beth Moore Studies.
      2. I HAVE read Beth Moore Books
      3. I HAVE attended a Living Proof Conference
      4. Teaching style and womanly behavior is outlined for us in the bible, therefore it is not up for debate or opinion
      5. You claim that Mrs Moore "does not advocate any other kind of prayer accept the kind that we are to focus God and God's scriptures" but she does. She advocated Contemplative Prayer which is a mystical false practice of the middle ages monks and mystics and is antithetical to the bible. more on Contemplative prayer here
      http://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-prayer.html

      and here
      http://www.gty.org/Blog/B121015

      I can certainly discern a good teaching from a false without "having suffered strongholds". I didn't leave my mind at the door when I encountered suffering. As a matter of fact I HAVE suffered strongholds and I put it to you that Mrs Moore merchandises your pain into her gain. Use your mind and not your emotions to detect good teaching from bad, please! I beg you with all my heart!

      If you have "done 6 Beth Moore studies, I have been to her live conference 7 times and I have viewed her on the Life Today show on Wednesdays for the past 5 years" then I am sorry for you and I worry for you. It shows you are weak in discernment (I say this honestly and not harshly) and I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you abut of the darkness and into a better role model to look up to. They are out there and taking a teaching from one of them would do you a world of good :)

      Delete
  17. I just got in the door from watching a Beth Moore Video teaching. I am not a big fan of Beth Moore but then I don't believe in being a big fan of human beings to where I see them through rose colored glasses. I have watched her teachings two other times in the last six years. I missed others because of work schedule and it was not the (excuse the pun) end of the world for me to miss them either. I was raised in a Christian home with lots of bible knowledge. I went to Bible school. I am an older lady that has seen many come and go and been blessed to see some stay. All this to say that I disagree with your opinion of Beth Moore and find myself "discerning" more that your opinions are personal and biased with prejudice of some sort maybe. I just don't see the opinions you expressed as being any part of your gifting. I found her teachings scripture based and I can see much study involved. The insight I heard reflected for me much prayer,preparation and thought. We can all have our opinions and this is simply just my opinion.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous, thank you for taking the time to let me know what you think. I hope you read the other parts of the series. In those, I offered scriptures to show where and how I believe Mrs Moore to be false. In those cases, it then becomes not an opinion, but a scripturally based discernment. If you would care to read those and get back to me on where or how I misused scripture or had a flawed understanding in my application of them, using scripture yourself, and not simply personal opinion, I'd be delighted to continue conversing so as to gain an greater understanding of where your concerns stem from

      Delete
  18. I am on my fourth Beth Moore study and have read several of her books, although I have not seen her in person. I think it is unfair to criticize her "casual" approach to her live ministry. The impression I have through the studies I have done is that Beth is very knowledgeable about scripture and spends a great deal of time in the Word. I believe that she has topics on which she has studied a great deal, and is prepared to teach, and waits for the Lord to lay on her heart which one or which combination she will speak on. This is very different than being unprepared. I have not always agreed with what Beth has said in her studies, and look forward to reading your further critiques, but if this is all you have so far, it's not much of a concern.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's not 'nit-picky" to God how we handle His word and how we present it in a teaching situation. It is also not nit-picky how women are to behave. He put it in the bible. If you want to dispense with those particular commands, then be my guest. However I remind you, these things matter to God.

      Secondly, I have written about Beth Moore 17 times at last count. There is much to discuss about her supposed "deep study", because what comes out isn't deep. It's wayward-to-false.

      --There are issues with her alleged 'visions."
      -Her Gnosticism
      -Her improper teaching based on eisegesis, not exegesis
      -over-allegorizing OT passages to apply to us where they do not apply to us
      --contemplative prayer
      -including Catholics in the body of Christ

      and more.

      It's up to you to see if these things are true. But don't dispense with them because you think they are too small a problem. Match up what she says and what she does based on the bible, not your opinion of whether these things are a "big" enough problem or not.

      Delete
  19. Sham on all of you.
    Back in the day a real women of god would have approached her and in love told her there concerns and then privately prayed for her. Yes i am a man and i believe thats the way to handle those types of concerns. Ladies this is just away for someone to Gossip. May god have mercy on all of you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Joe,

      Beth Moore's teaching is public, not continued in a local church body, hence no need for Matthew 18. But you don't have to believe me, a woman. I am pasting in full an essay written by an male elder in the faith, DA Carson, on Matthew 18 abuse. I ask you to please read to the end where he mentions a 'disproportionate indignation' in Matthew 18 accusers.

      I would also ask that if you are concerned with women's (and men's) roles in the church, as we all should be, to pursue why Beth Moore teaches men, when that is prohibited by scripture. Back in the day, that would not have been allowed. Essay to follow in three parts. Thanks.

      Delete
    2. Editorial On Abusing Matthew 18
      D. A. Carson
      D. A. Carson is research professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois.

      Several years ago I wrote a fairly restrained critique of the emerging church movement as it then existed, before it morphed into its present diverse configurations.1 That little book earned me some of the angriest, bitterness-laced emails I have ever received—to say nothing, of course, of the blog posts. There were other responses, of course—some approving and grateful, some thoughtful and wanting to dialogue. But the ones that displayed the greatest intensity were those whose indignation was white hot because I had not first approached privately those whose positions I had criticized in the book. What a hypocrite I was—criticizing my brothers on ostensible biblical grounds when I myself was not following the Bible’s mandate to observe a certain procedure nicely laid out in Matt 18:15–17.

      Doubtless this sort of charge is becoming more common. It is regularly linked to the “Gotcha!” mentality that many bloggers and their respondents seem to foster. Person A writes a book criticizing some element or other of historic Christian confessionalism. A few bloggers respond with more heat than light. Person B writes a blog with some substance, responding to Person A. The blogosphere lights up with attacks on Person B, many of them asking Person B rather accusingly, “Did you communicate with Person A in private first? If not, aren’t you guilty of violating what Jesus taught us in Matthew 18?” This pattern of counter-attack, with minor variations, is flourishing.

      To which at least three things must be said:

      (1) The sin described in the context of Matt 18:15–17 takes place on the small scale of what transpires in a local church (which is certainly what is envisaged in the words “tell it to the church”). It is not talking about a widely circulated publication designed to turn large numbers of people in many parts of the world away from historic confessionalism. This latter sort of sin is very public and is already doing damage; it needs to be confronted and its damage undone in an equally public way. This is quite different from, say, the situation where a believer discovers that a brother has been breaking his marriage vows by sleeping with someone other than his wife, and goes to him privately, then with one other, in the hope of bringing about genuine repentance and contrition, and only then brings the matter to the church.

      To put the matter differently, the impression one derives from reading Matt 18 is that the sin in question is not, at first, publicly noticed (unlike the publication of a foolish but influential book). It is relatively private, noticed by one or two believers, yet serious enough to be brought to the attention of the church if the offender refuses to turn away from it. By contrast, when NT writers have to deal with false teaching, another note is struck: the godly elder “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:9 NIV).

      Doubtless one can think up some contemporary situations that initially might make one scratch one’s head and wonder what the wise course should be—or, to frame the problem in the context of the biblical passages just cited, whether one should respond in the light of Matt 18 or of Titus 1.

      to be continued

      Delete
    3. For example, a local church pastor may hear a lecturer in his denominational seminary or theological college is teaching something he judges to be outside the confessional camp of that denomination, possibly frankly heretical. Let us make the situation more challenging by postulating that the pastor has a handful of students in his church who attend that seminary and are being influenced by the lecturer in question. Is the pastor bound by Matt 18 to talk with the lecturer before challenging him in public?

      This situation is tricky in that the false teaching is public in one sense and private in another. It is public in that it is not a merely private opinion, for it is certainly being promulgated; it is private in the sense that the material is not published in the public arena, but is being disseminated in a closed lecture hall. It seems to me that the pastor would be wise to go to the lecturer first, but not out of obedience to Matt 18, which really does not pertain, but to determine just what the views of the lecturer really are. He may come to the conclusion that the lecturer is kosher after all; alternately, that the lecturer has been misunderstood; or again, that the lecturer is dissimulating. He may feel he has to go to the lecturer’s superior, or even higher. My point, however, is that this course of action is really not tracing out Jesus’ instruction in Matt 18. The pastor is going to the lecturer, in the first instance, not to reprove him, but to find out if there really is a problem when the teaching falls in this ambiguous category of not-quite-private and not-quite-public.

      (2) In Matt 18, the sin in question is, by the authority of the church, excommunicable—in at least two senses.

      First, the offense may be so serious that the only responsible decision that the church can make is to thrust the offender out of the church and view him or her as an unconverted person (18:17). In other words, the offense is excommunicable because of its seriousness. In the NT as a whole, there are three categories of sins that reach this level of seriousness: major doctrinal error (e.g., 1 Tim 1:20), major moral failure (e.g. 1 Cor 5), and persistent and schismatic divisiveness (e.g., Titus 3:10). These constitute the negative flipside of the three positive “tests” of 1 John: the truth test, the obedience test, and the love test. In any case, though we do not know what it is, the offense in Matt 18 is excommunicable because of its seriousness.

      Second, the situation is such that the offender can actually be excommunicated from the assembly. In other words, the offense is excommunicable because organizationally it is possible to excommunicate the offender. By contrast, suppose someone in, say, Philadelphia were to claim to be a devout Christian while writing a book that was in certain ways deeply anti-Christian. Suppose a church in, say, Toronto, Canada decided the book is heretical. Such a church might, I suppose, declare the book misguided or even heretical, but they certainly could not excommunicate the writer. Doubtless they could declare the offender persona non grata in their own assembly, but this would be a futile gesture and probably counter-productive to boot. After all, the offender might be perfectly acceptable in his own assembly.2 In other words, this sort of offense might be excommunicable in the first sense—i.e., the false teaching might be judged so severe that the offender deserves to be excommunicated—but is not excommunicable in the second sense, for the organizational reality is such that excommunication is not practicable. The point to observe is that whatever the offense in Matthew 18, it is excommunicable in both senses: the sin must be serious enough to warrant excommunication, and the organizational situation is such that the local church can take decisive action that actually means something. Where one or the other of these two senses does not apply, neither does Mt 18.

      to be continued

      Delete
    4. One might of course argue that it is the part of prudential wisdom to write to authors before you criticize them in your own publication. I can think of situations where that may or may not be a good idea. But such reasoning forms no part of the argument of Matthew 18.

      (3) There is a flavor of play-acting righteousness, of disproportionate indignation, behind the current round of “Gotcha!” games. If Person B charges Person A, who has written a book arguing for a revisionist understanding of the Bible, with serious error and possibly with heresy, it is no part of wisdom to “Tut-tut” the narrow-mindedness of Person B and smile condescendingly and dismissively over such judgmentalism. That may play well among those who think the greatest virtue in the world is tolerance, but surely it cannot be the honorable path for a Christian. Genuine heresy is a damnable thing, a horrible thing. It dishonors God and leads people astray. It misrepresents the gospel and entices people to believe untrue things and to act in reprehensible ways. Of course, Person B may be entirely mistaken. Perhaps the charge Person B is making is entirely misguided, even perverse. In that case, one should demonstrate the fact, not hide behind a procedural matter. And where Person B is advancing serious biblical argumentation, it should be evaluated, not dismissed with a procedural sleight-of-hand and a wrong-headed appeal to Matthew 18.
      ----------end DA Carson essay-------------

      Hope this helps.

      Delete
  20. Alternately, Joe, you can read this excerpt of another brother in the faith who says the same.

    "... fact that a public wrong was done. Others are affected in public actions, and thus, public confrontation is often necessary. A private correction to a public wrong doesn’t inform or help the rest of the Church, does it?

    Reprove, correct and rebuke-privately if a private sin against you, and publicly if done so publicly at the Church’s expense. That, after all, is what we find in Scripture as the pattern to follow. Public wrong, public correction – see I Corinthians 5:1-5 and Galatians 2:11-14. (cf. also Matt. 18:21; Luke 17:3-4).

    Do not use Matthew 18:15 as a catch-all stone to be hurled at others when they perhaps are more concerned for the truth of God than you may be. Listen folks, with all the love I can muster in a Georgia font, learn to use Scripture for the benefit of others. Doctrine is for bringing people, even Christians, to Christ.

    Can Matthew 18:15 ever be used in regard to public sins? Yes, but remember, “If your brother sins against you” is a personal condition. If we are dealing with public teaching, that is quite a different matter.
    http://5ptsalt.com/2011/10/20/the-abuse-of-matthew-1815/

    ReplyDelete
  21. I am a woman in the South (transplanted), I love the Southern women's ways....but Beth Moore is a false teacher. I have not had a chance to read all the comments, nor your subsequent entries to this post, but everything else I have seen on your blog so far is very discerning, which is why I added it to m blogroll. However, Beth Moore is part of the Emergent Church advocating mysticism and contemplative prayer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM8wvqlNyYE&sns=em

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Luciana,

      I agree. She is or has become flat out false. I've written about her I think 17 times on the blog. All of them say the same thing: take another woman's studies, and don't read her books.

      One of the entries I write about her remarks on her clip where Mrs Moore is saying that she had a vision and was lifted above the earth to see the global church as Jesus sees it, etc. The fact of saying she saw through Jesus's eyes is problematic to say the least, and in the global church, she included Catholics. With that one, Mrs Moore proved to me that she has gone off the rails as far as I'm concerned and should be avoided entirely.

      Thank you for adding me to your blogroll! I appreciate it so much.

      Delete
  22. I wonder at the need to spend so much time and energy in critique of Beth Moore....Luke 9: 49-50

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No need to wonder. I will answer your wonder.

      "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 1:3-4

      That is why. It is so others do not need to end up a shipwreck of the faith. The need is great for people to understand that wolves come in sheep's clothing and devour them.

      The key to properly understanding the verse you referenced in Luke is "In your name". Just because someone says they are operating in in Jesus, doesn't mean they are. Jeremiah speaks to that often. There were many false prophets claiming to speak for God but they were not bringing His authorized message.

      By your standard, we should never compare what a teacher says against the bible if they just say the password "Jesus" , and so would include Mormons, or even Muslims, as doctrinally correct teachers.

      No, one must ESPECIALLY scrutinize teachers who say they come in Jesus name, (1 John 4:1) because not all of them do. (Mt 7:15). In the case of the verse you referenced, they did. In many other cases, they don't. Judge with a right judgment. (John 7:24)

      You don't have to wonder what my "needs" are. Just ask.

      Delete
  23. Hi Elizabeth My wife and I read your blog almost daily. We encourage our three grown children to read it also. I sent your blog as reference to our local Christian radio station because they are promoting Beth Moore. I expressed to them how troubling this is. This is their web site promoting her. http://witnessingthegoodnews.org/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi nonymous,

      thanks so much for reading and sharing.

      FYI, here is another tidbit for you-Pastor Mike Abendroth of Bethlehem Bibbe Church puts on 90 second videos, and in this one he addressed the Beth Moore issue from the standpoint of the fact she doesn't seem to be led by her husband. It's titled "Where is Beth Moore' Husband?" and it is a good question.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLU1wR3Rzg8
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLU1wR3Rzg8

      Delete
  24. Larry and Sondra,

    Thank you for the blog and information in regards to Beth Moore. Our
    website creator after reviewing our program schedule placed Moore's
    ministry there as sort of an example of a featured ministry. We left it
    there since Moore's short program is aired by WTGN. We had plans to
    feature one of our more prominent/popular speakers, but obviously hadn't
    done so yet. I'll have to admit, I personally know very little about Beth
    Moore and will do some research on her ministry.

    We really appreciate your information and your concern.

    Kind Regards,
    Eric



    Latest response our radio station

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for letting me know! Good for you to bring that to their attention, and now hopefully it will bear fruit!!

      Delete
  25. I went to her long "simulcast" and was very tired of it after about two hours of it that day. I didnt' have the stamina for the whole thing....My friend and I noticed her using the word "crazy' more than once in a Christian context and then "neurotic' and even" psychotic" in a spiritual sense. I know she is not promoting herself as an intellectual or anything of the sort, but it does not take much intellectual sophistication to realize that "psychosis" is an illness, a health issue. I was thinking we do not speak of a person as "cancerous" in a spiritual context. It would be confusing, even as a metaphor. She re defines words like "psychosis" to mean what she wants them to mean as a spiritual state.. Would a person be spoken of as "epileptic--acting in a 'fit'" in their spiritual walk, I wondered.... I was amazed to find out that she actually said something about the use of the word "fitly" in Proverbs, but that she, on the other hand, had written a book "in a fit." Maybe cancer will be next...in her writings or speech.... This carelessness with words has me thinking she is unsophisticated,not only in an intellectual sense, but perhaps in a spiritual sense as well, in spite of all the enthusiasm and zeal.I don't see her as a harmful person or anything like that....just that she misusing words of mental health (or physical brain conditions) in a spiritual context. Everyone can make mistakes, and if she is making people feel good, that is great.It didn't make me feel good. I don't see her as highly spiritual, or "deep." But how many celebrities are actually spiritual or " deep" these days? I think it has something that has to do with the Holy Spirit, also known as the Holy Ghost:: God's Manifestation and Comforter in these days. I don't get much of a sense of the Holy Ghost in Beth Moore's event..... To me I felt the experiece was more like listening to a cheerleader for the Lord.......Obviously, other women see something that I can't see. Otherwise why would people pay for a twenty dollar ticket to hear her preach, if that is what she is doing...(.vs teaching or "sharing."? ) I have heard many local sermons that were more meaningful to me personally. I have not attempted the Bible workbooks or anything like that. I don't feel led of the Lord to do so..... There is no accounting for taste, obviously.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Good evening. I have done several of Beth Moore's written studies with DVD's (4) as well as recently attending a live event. I also believe that I have the spiritual gift of prophecy and discernment. I have enjoyed Beth Moore's studies as well as her personality. She relates to the women at her conferences/Bible studies due to transparency and experiences in her life while using the Bible for teaching through these experiences. Isn't that what the spiritual gift of wisdom is? To teach scripture for using it in everyday situations. If ALL Christian women were transparent of their shortcomings and their repentance to bring glory to God how much more effective would their ministries be? Matthew 10:39 "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." We aren't created the same so why should the approach to teaching be the same as long as it is Biblical? We all also aren't on the same level of spiritual maturity. She uses the Bible in ALL of her studies. In the Daniel study, she states that several noted Biblical scholars can't agree on the timing of the departure of the church/rapture and to look into the other theories provided they line up with the Bible. Your judgments of her appearance aren't Biblical. I Samuel 16:7 "But the Lord said to Samuel, do not look at his appearance or his height for I have rejected him, the Lord does not look at the things people look at, people look at the outward appearance while the Lord looks at the heart." Your remarks on the conference are one sided and I suggest you do one of her studies. To me it appears that you are attacking her appearance and style based on this conference without researching her studies. Search your heart and pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes. I feel that your position on her are in the flesh on this one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Have you read the other essay in my series? They go on from appearance and style to closely examine the substance of her teaching. However, don't dismiss appearance and style. The New Testament has lots to comment on about how a woman should appear, speak, and teach. So, it counts.

      You said, "She relates to the women at her conferences/Bible studies due to transparency and experiences in her life while using the Bible for teaching through these experiences. Isn't that what the spiritual gift of wisdom is?"

      No. It isn't. A bible teacher teaches the bible, not herself nor her experiences. Once a person learns the truth from scriptures, the Holy Spirit applies it to us in our life.

      If a teacher was to be called to teach through his or her experiences, then Peter would not have said,

      "For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,i with whom I am well pleased,” 18we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," (2 Peter 1:16-9)

      Now, Peter had just had the most amazing experience that a human could *ever* have - he had just heard the audible voice of God, he had seen Jesus transformed into full glory and he saw Moses and Elijah glorified! And he said that even though that was great, there is something better, more sure,and that is the word, specifically denying that experience figures in AT ALL.

      As for your concern of me having no grounds to speak to her handling of the word because I haven't had enough experience with her, which would be valid if I'd only have had researched one teaching of her, but it is not so. I stated that I had attended a two-day Living Proof conference, and I had done her studies, and I had watched her clips.

      So rest assured that I have a well-rounded, multi-media impression of Beth Moore from direct experience. (I have also read her books). What you need to come to grips with, all that aside, is that what she teaches does not add up to scripture. Just because she uses scripture doesn't mean she is teaching it correctly. Mormons teach scripture too, you know. Proper handling of the word of God is the important thing. And Beth Moore teaches falsely precisely BECAUSE she teaches though her experiences. I encourage you to go on and read the other essays in the series and especially the essay about the vision she claims to have had. Both the fact that she claims direct revelation and the content of the vision are blatantly anti-scriptural. Here it is

      One clear reason why Beth Moore is a false teacher:
      Examining Beth Moore's statement: the 'Bride is paralyzed by unbelief'
      http://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2013/06/examining-beth-moores-statement-bride.html

      Delete